Steam Boiler blows controlers

james76

Steam boiler is tired, I'm tired
Single pipe sears/Dunkirk boiler. 2 wire thermostat. New last year honeywell gas valve. Rebuilt McConnell water feeder. McConnell low water cut off. Using the Honeywell s8600 series universal flame controler. Thought a broken sight glass with leak was the issue. Not the issue. Blew my 5th controler in two winters overnight. Any thoughts or suggestions?

ScottSecor

Assuming you do not have any issues with brown outs (less than normal 120 volts) coming to the boiler, I have three guesses.

First is the boiler short cycles and the control is getting worn out. Second guess is the control us getting overheated from the boiler and or flame. Third guess is that you are overloading the control.

A photo or two might help.

james76

I should follow with the unit eventually needs replaced. I've rebuilt the heat exchanger stack once. It leaks. The pressure switch sample line was clogged to the point of needing swapped out. Broken sight glass last year made some pretty art in my basement. Water feeder blew it's solenoid. I loose two to three rollout switches per year.

This started because of the lack of Boiler techs in my area. The one fella spent 4 hours. Left with it limping along only to find that 4 of the heat exchanger plates were cracked and rusted. The only thing keeping pressure was the clog of rust slag jamming the holes. So I self taught this monster into a semblance of functionality...

Jamie Hall

I realise this sounds a bit far-fetched, but have you -- or someone -- really checked out your electrical system? If there is something amiss with the neutral connection at the panel, you could be getting occasional overvoltage or undervoltage conditions without otherwise really being aware of it. I would think other appliances or lights might also give trouble, but perhaps not. Might be worth making a thorough check on -- and that would be a very good electrician, unless you are good with electricity.

KC_Jones

james76 said:

I should follow with the unit eventually needs replaced. I've rebuilt the heat exchanger stack once. It leaks. The pressure switch sample line was clogged to the point of needing swapped out. Broken sight glass last year made some pretty art in my basement. Water feeder blew it's solenoid. I loose two to three rollout switches per year.

This started because of the lack of Boiler techs in my area. The one fella spent 4 hours. Left with it limping along only to find that 4 of the heat exchanger plates were cracked and rusted. The only thing keeping pressure was the clog of rust slag jamming the holes. So I self taught this monster into a semblance of functionality...

I have a feeling eventually may be here now, or even come already and has been overlooked.

Where are you located? I ask because we may know someone competent in your area. I'm not a contractor just a homeowner like yourself that is an avid DIY and installed my own steam boiler, so suggesting a professional is not something I take lightly. This seems like one of those cases if someone competent can be found.

Are they tripping or failing? If they are tripping you have a serious problem that needs addressed. If they are tripping that could be flame rollout that is indeed cooking your controls and causing them to fail.

Some pictures of what you've got may help.

EBEBRATT-Ed

If you are tripping roll out switches you have the potential to have a dangerous situation. Carbon monoxide is dangerous.

I would check the flue pipe, clean the boiler and check the draft and CO . If you can do this fine if not get someone who can.

james76

Jamie Hall said:

I realise this sounds a bit far-fetched, but have you -- or someone -- really checked out your electrical system?

That is a thought. We loose led's and have flickers when the instant hot water heater is running. Curious though, would the transformer 120 to 24v transformer not act as protection...

james76

KC_Jones said:

I have a feeling eventually may be here now, or even come already and has been overlooked. Where are you located? I ask because we may know someone competent in your area. I'm not a contractor just a homeowner like yourself that is an avid DIY and installed my own steam boiler, so suggesting a professional is not something I take lightly. This seems like one of those cases if someone competent can be found. Are they tripping or failing? If they are tripping you have a serious problem that needs addressed. If they are tripping that could be flame rollout that is indeed cooking your controls and causing them to fail. Some pictures of what you've got may help.

Well past time. Complicated r$asons why it hasn't been done.

West Central ohio. The guy we tried was the only boiler man in the multiple county surrounding area.

Don't know if its a tripp or a fail. These are Chineseium replacements for a start. But in the past there was rollout evidence. Before the heat exchange stack rebuild. They always test bad when checked.

james76

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

If you are tripping roll out switches you have the potential to have a dangerous situation. Carbon monoxide is dangerous. I would check the flue pipe, clean the boiler and check the draft and CO . If you can do this fine if not get someone who can.

Draft is great. You can feel the air flow into the unit. And zero alarms on the CO detector. No powered damper to get in the way and the flue is clear. The roll out issues are solved I feel. But I wonder about this voltage idea making them behave as fuses.

james76

ScottSecor said:

Assuming you do not have any issues with brown outs (less than normal 120 volts) coming to the boiler, I have three guesses. First is the boiler short cycles and the control is getting worn out. Second guess is the control us getting overheated from the boiler and or flame. Third guess is that you are overloading the control. A photo or two might help.

Very possible. We just lost a 4ft. intigrated led luminaries and often loose standard led bulbs. The hot water heater, when running hot water, makes lights flicker.

Water level is usually the only thing that makes it short cycle. That should be corrected now.

I am concerned about heat. The controler is mounting out side the unit and may be getting excessive heat. But I can touch the outside of the unit during a run without issue. That said I'll use some stand-offs to make it not surface mounted.

Explain you overload idea, please. Not sure what you mean there...

And thank you! Electrical is something I had not considered in this way.

Jamie Hall

james76 said:

Jamie Hall said:

I realise this sounds a bit far-fetched, but have you -- or someone -- really checked out your electrical system?

That is a thought. We loose led's and have flickers when the instant hot water heater is running. Curious though, would the transformer 120 to 24v transformer not act as protection...



No, it wouldn't. And if you have flickers when anything is running, like that hot water heater, you have some problem or problems with loose or faulty connections. Worth finding and fixing, even if it isn't the direct cause of the problems.

james76

james76 said:

I should follow with the unit eventually needs replaced. I've rebuilt the heat exchanger stack once. It leaks. The pressure switch sample line was clogged to the point of needing swapped out. Broken sight glass last year made some pretty art in my basement. Water feeder blew it's solenoid. I loose two to three rollout switches per year.

This started because of the lack of Boiler techs in my area. The one fella spent 4 hours. Left with it limping along only to find that 4 of the heat exchanger plates were cracked and rusted. The only thing keeping pressure was the clog of rust slag jamming the holes. So I self taught this monster into a semblance of functionality...

New s8610u arrived an hour ago.

james76

New s8610u fired as it should on start up. Water level where it should be with the feeder functioning.

Voltage at the transformer

james76

Voltage at the gas valve

james76

23.7 volts at the controller

james76

After she warms this place up a bit. I'm going to play with the water heater and furnace power feed. See if I can find a spike.

james76

Jamie Hall said:

Jamie Hall said:

I realise this sounds a bit far-fetched, but have you -- or someone -- really checked out your electrical system?

That is a thought. We loose led's and have flickers when the instant hot water heater is running. Curious though, would the transformer 120 to 24v transformer not act as protection...

No, it wouldn't. And if you have flickers when anything is running, like that hot water heater, you have some problem or problems with loose or faulty connections. Worth finding and fixing, even if it isn't the direct cause of the problems.

I see that now. Jamie, my man. I'm not going to get all gushy here but I'm very much thinking your on to something. Any thoughts on adding protection to the boiler. Either on the 120v side or the 24v?

I'm checking the power box next.

Jamie Hall

While you're at it --lower the cutin pressure of your pressuretrol to about 0.75 psi instead of 2. The whole system will be happier...

james76

Jamie Hall said:

While you're at it --lower the cutin pressure of your pressuretrol to about 0.75 psi instead of 2. The whole system will be happier...

Roger that. While I'm at it, can you elaborate as to why, all science and techy like??¿

109A_5

Hello @james76,

What is going on here ? Where is the probe (and/or the wire that connects to it) for the LWCO (Low Water Cut Off) ???

That LWCO transformer looks like it has been running warmer than I would expect for some time.

Jamie Hall

james76 said:

Jamie Hall said:

While you're at it --lower the cutin pressure of your pressuretrol to about 0.75 psi instead of 2. The whole system will be happier...

Roger that. While I'm at it, can you elaborate as to why, all science and techy like??¿


Several different reasons. First place -- the steam at low pressure moves faster and gets to the radiators faster. Second, it's a lot easier on the hardware.

Steamhead

109A_5 said:

Hello @james76,

What is going on here ? Where is the probe (and/or the wire that connects to it) for the LWCO (Low Water Cut Off) ???

That LWCO transformer looks like it has been running warmer than I would expect for some time.

That's a Dunkirk. The probe is mounted in the front of the block and connects to the LWCO by a wire that goes to the "P" terminal in the LWCO.

james76

109A_5 said:

Hello @james76, What is going on here ? Where is the probe (and/or the wire that connects to it) for the LWCO (Low Water Cut Off) ??? That LWCO transformer looks like it has been running warmer than I would expect for some time.

That unit is original to the boiler from before we took over its care and to the best I can piece together it's only the second one since the original instal in the sixties. Beyond that I can tell you that it is wired according to the boiler diagram. The low water probe is on the terminal block in the P position. Top most in that picture. I pull the probe annually to clean it up and inspect. It tests good after annual servicing prior to the first firing of the season. Operationally the low water cut off works well since the solenoid on the feeder was replaced.

ethicalpaul

The steam does flow faster when the pressure is low, but that has nothing to do with your pressuretrol setting. Even a pressuretrol set at 10psi will experience .01 psi, then .1psi, then .2psi, (where the steam is moving fast) then 1psi, then 2psi etc. during a long call for heat and assuming an oversized boiler (that almost everyone has).

And yes of course once the PSI is 10 (and no doubt before this point) the steam is by definition moving slowly. But again, that doesn't matter. The system at that time is 100% steam with no air in it, so speed doesn't matter at all.

I believe the statement "steam flows faster at lower pressure" was an easy to say and remember statement that was created to get obstinate old steam contractors to change their mistaken ways. The ends probably justified the means .

The simple reason you want to turn down your pressuretrol is simply because steam at higher pressure in a residential system does nothing at ALL to help you (and can hurt your air vents as Jamie mentioned), and it costs fuel to get that higher pressure.

I believe this so completely that I spent time and money to force my boiler to rest for 10 minutes any time the pressure gets over .3 psi. The radiators continue to radiate during this time and believe me there's no overshooting.

109A_5

Hello @james76,
OK, thanks @Steamhead, I looked in a manual of a newer version of the LWCO and did not see a probe remote mount connection option, good to know. Odd and dysfunctional things show up here, better safe than sorry.

@james76, Good to know you have a functional LWCO and you test it.
The discoloration of the transformer usually means excessive heat and the transformer is being run in excess of its intended ratings. Since you have other electrical issues that may be another sign of the issue.

Did you do your voltage checks with other larger electrical loads running to see if your electrical service neutral wire has high resistance ? If the loads are balanced when the measurement was made you may miss that type of defect (assuming a common residential 240 Volt, 120-0-120 type electrical service).

james76

ethicalpaul said:

The steam does flow faster when the pressure is low, but that has nothing to do with your pressuretrol setting. Even a pressuretrol set at 10psi will experience .01 psi, then .1psi, then .2psi, (where the steam is moving fast) then 1psi, then 2psi etc. during a long call for heat and assuming an oversized boiler (that almost everyone has). And yes of course once the PSI is 10 (and no doubt before this point) the steam is by definition moving slowly. But again, that doesn't matter. The system at that time is 100% steam with no air in it, so speed doesn't matter at all. I believe the statement "steam flows faster at lower pressure" was an easy to say and remember statement that was created to get obstinate old steam contractors to change their mistaken ways. The ends probably justified the means . The simple reason you want to turn down your pressuretrol is simply because steam at higher pressure in a residential system does nothing at ALL to help you (and can hurt your air vents as Jamie mentioned), and it costs fuel to get that higher pressure. I believe this so completely that I spent time and money to force my boiler to rest for 10 minutes any time the pressure gets over .3 psi. The radiators continue to radiate during this time and believe me there's no overshooting.

Good to know. Nothing worse than "but we've always done it this way"

james76

109A_5 said:

Hello @james76, OK, thanks @Steamhead, I looked in a manual of a newer version of the LWCO and did not see a probe remote mount connection option, good to know. Odd and dysfunctional things show up here, better safe than sorry. @james76, Good to know you have a functional LWCO and you test it. The discoloration of the transformer usually means excessive heat and the transformer is being run in excess of its intended ratings. Since you have other electrical issues that may be another sign of the issue. Did you do your voltage checks with other larger electrical loads running to see if your electrical service neutral wire has high resistance ? If the loads are balanced when the measurement was made you may miss that type of defect (assuming a common residential 240 Volt, 120-0-120 type electrical service).

Im sure that LWCO is tired. The solenoid on the feeder was acing up for years. It would call for water for a very long time. Back then I was manually feeding water on the regular untill I rebuilt the feeder solenoid. So in that regard the heat damage makes sense. 

I did. After the heating run turned on the hot water and dryer. 1 volt drop at the transformer. So 23.5vac. I didn't think to check resistance. On the 120 side of the transformer, right?

This has done nothing to change my mind about steam heat. In fact I hope to add some sexy honeywell tpv's from Europe once I get her running smooth.

JUGHNE

As stated above you could have an intermittent neutral connection.

This could be anywhere from the power company connection, meter socket, and your service panel.

It is called a floating or baked out splice. Sometimes good a good connection sometimes not.

The neutral maintains the balance between the 2 hot legs, which are 240 volts.
The neutral is the center tap of this transformer winding (out on the pole) and it cuts the 240 in half to give you your 120 volts.

If that connection partially fails then the 120 measurement can vary up or down on each leg.
The symptoms of this are high voltage in part of the house and then low voltage in the other parts of the house.

The high side action can blow out light bulbs and could make your boiler transformer deliver well over the standard 24 nominal voltage.
And then everything can return to normal as you try to monitor it.

I know....been there.

109A_5

james76 said:

I didn't think to check resistance. On the 120 side of the transformer, right?

No, I did not mean the transformer's primary. I meant what @JUGHNE wrote in the post above, you can't just easily measure it with an Ohmmeter. You can switch on large 120 VAC loads (Edit for clarity) or use portable electric space heaters as test loads while measuring the Voltage to see if the Neutral deviates. A windy day may reveal something too if your electric service is aerial.

Each 120 of the 240 should be almost equal. Not 115 and 125 or worse.

JUGHNE

A bad neutral connection will not affect any 220 volt loads as it is not part of the circuit for those loads.

I have found bad neutral connections at the power pole/source, the weather head connection (if overhead) at the house, inside the meter socket, inside the power panel, and any junction to the boiler circuit.

Sometimes the wire may be tight in the lug, but the lug itself is loose on the bus bar.
The screw holding the lug is under the wire. The wire and setscrew must be removed to access the lower screw. (Power must be off, sometimes having to pull the power company meter).

So you see why you need an electrician familiar with the problem.

Before there was a lot of Wifi in the air you could find static on an AM radio as you got near the problem....if it was acting up at that time.

109A_5

An example of an open Neutral. Your mileage may vary.

Jamie Hall

and it's surprising how often one sees that sort of thing -- usually not quite as drastic as @109A_5 's sketch, but still there.

pecmsg

Install a voltage protector. 

Too high too low it shuts the unit down. 

https://www.supplyhouse.com/ICM-Controls-ICM492C-LF-ICM492-Single-Phase-Motor-Protection-80-300-VAC?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=shopping_neutral&utm_campaign=Shopping_Neutral_Returning_users&gclid=CjwKCAjw7c2pBhAZEiwA88pOF33OqwvsWMJSrVvDOC0swmw-hCpNqZahhVTMipO8dfKUVpP6Km-x0hoCl18QAvD_BwE

JUGHNE

The last one I was involved with had about those voltages.....sometimes.

The problem was the utility neutral squeeze on connection just above the meter socket.

With the power on, you can measure across any connection and if get any voltage showing then that is a high resistance connection.

james76

Boiler guy inroute for the morning. I'm leaning hard on this neutral drop/voltage issue. Thank you all for your input.

109A_5

Hello @james76,
Maybe off topic, but where is the pigtail ?

Jamie Hall

Cheers. On your installation there isn't one. Should be, to protect the pressuretrol, but... not there. Worse, I can't see a good way to get at the pipe... sigh.

And by the way -- that pressuretrol is set to high. Try reducing the setting on the front scale to just above the bottom 0.5 psi mark.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@james76

Also, when trouble shooting a suspected bad neutral have someone put an amprobe on your grounding electrode conductor (GEC) (the wire (usually bare) that runs from your electric service to your water pipe and or ground rods or well casing etc.

A bad neutral will often cause current on the GEC. Turn on a bunch of loads in the house while testing to amplify this.

You will often get some small current on the GEC when everything is normal as well.

DawsonArnold

It could be an electrical issue, like voltage spikes, that's frying the controllers. Or maybe there's something else in the system that's putting too much stress on them. It's best to call in a pro who can take a close look at the whole setup, from your electrical connections to the boiler's internals. They should be able to track down the root of the problem. A boiler that keeps eating flame controllers isn’t something to take lightly, so get a skilled technician to check it out as soon as possible.

BobC

A few decades ago one of my aunts was complaining of short bulb life and dimming of vulbs when frige or furnace came on. I told her it sounded like a bad neutral and told her to call the town electric utility and have them check it out.

They found a bad connection on the meter box and that solved her problems.

Bob

james76

109A_5 said:

Hello @james76,
Maybe off topic, but where is the pigtail ?

Replaced with this contraptions years ago. Presuretol pigtil was clogged and rotten. This was the get boiler on now solution.