Apartment floor not getting any heat steam

lcmech

Hello newbie here. Let me give you background of the system apartment building with 16-20 apartments one pipe steam system 4” steam main going around basement with 1 1/4” risers feeding 4 radiators on each floor for each room. On one apartment on a 2nd floor virtually none of the radiators get hot. Bathroom radiators are fine and one radiator in the kitchen first 2 tubes get warm. The others in bedrooms and living room nothing. We’ve taken out the vent completely disconnected radiator and nothing while the 1 1/4” main right next to it is burning hot. The 3rd and 4th floors above it working fine with lady on 4th floor even saying it’s too hot in her apartment.  My next idea to get 2nd floor working is to put vent rite adjustable air valve on 3rd and 4th floor to try to get the steam to the 2nd floor is this right thinking or am I totally missing something here? Any input would be appreciated thank you.

ethicalpaul

Honestly with a multi-unit building like that I would be hiring a knowledgable steam contractor. You don't want this liability, even if your state doesn't mandate it.

Also, you might want to count the actual number of apartments in your building so you know how much rent you should be getting every month...you don't want to guess at that

lcmech

Thank you so much for your help buddy 

Jamie Hall

There is a logic problem here. Though I tend to agree with @ethicalpaul -- that is a pretty good sized setup for an amateur to play with -- you can go a long way helping yourself here.

Specifically by making sure that you know which steam mains or risers feed which radiators, and how they are fed from the risers. That you have one floor on which most of the radiators don't work suggests to me that there may be a common feed for each floor -- and that there is something amiss with that floor's feed line.

This is augmented by your comment that you tried disconnecting one radiator completely (leaving an open steam line? Brave man) and that you got nothing from that line, even though a main right next to it is burning hot. As they say, does not compute. If the main right next to it is burning hot, the pipe should at the very least be warm -- if not hot -- simply by heat conducting through the metal. But -- only if the two are connected to each other. They may not be... and you need to find out.

lcmech

Yes there is separate 1 1/4” vertical risers that feeds each rad on each floor meaning there’s 6 different risers for each set of rooms on each floor so maybe something is capped off from the tee between floors going to the rad. Will find out tomorrow 

ethicalpaul

By the way, I meant no harm lcmech, I thought from your first post you were the property owner but maybe you are an HVAC contractor

lcmech

No worries and Yes hvac and plumbing contractor in CT and western mass trying to figure out the problem for the customer when every other heating  contractor is telling them to add sections to the boiler and/or just change the system to baseboard for each unit and make it into hot water system. Feel like I’m just missing a small detail. 

Jamie Hall

lcmech said:

No worries and Yes hvac and plumbing contractor in CT and western mass trying to figure out the problem for the customer when every other heating  contractor is telling them to add sections to the boiler and/or just change the system to baseboard for each unit and make it into hot water system. Feel like I’m just missing a small detail. 

You are at least trying to solve the problem! i do wonder about the piping, and I can't help thinking that there is something in common for that floor, but not for the others. You don't say but you imply (vents on the radiators) that this is one pipe steam, not two, so at least we don't have to worry about a rag in a common return...

ScottSecor

If I understand the system correctly, it is one pipe, correct?

Is the boiler building pressure (even .5psi may be enough)?
If the boiler is building pressure, is there any pressure at the end of the steam main(s)?
It is very unusual, but not impossible that the boiler and/or burner is undersized (or under firing). Yes, we all know most steam (and hot water) heating systems are oversized.
Is it possible that the steam that is trying to get to this cold area is collapsing before it reaches the destination?
Is the boiler running long enough to heat all of the radiators?
Are the warm radiators "stealing" all of the steam and while the cold radiators suffer?

Hope this makes sense.

Jells

Watching! I've had similar problems with a smaller system. Hot 1.25" riser next to a cold rad. Taking off the vent entirely has no effect. One great piece of diagnostic advice I was given here was to install an old school tube manometer on the sight glass of the boiler to measure your inches of pressure. Its just a vinyl tube from the bottom running up to the ceiling with an open top. The level in the tube above the sight glass in inches is literally your inches of pressure!

EBEBRATT-Ed

@lcmech

Is it possible that some of the radiator valves are shut or broken internally?

lcmech

Turned off 3 of the rad valves completely disconnected the rad from it opened the valve completely and nothing could see right into the black nipple however one of the 3 i disconnected did get a faint bit of steam coming out but nothing to heat anything up. 

Jamie Hall

You may have to trace back through the piping to determine how those pipes are fed (don't make any assumptions) and then find out how far steam does get in them. Tedious, and if they are concealed in a wall or floor...

lcmech

Ya I’d assume their fed from the risers that are going through the apartment right next to each radiator but yes your right in this trade expect the unexpected 

neilc

back up a couple replies here,
"add sections" ?
by more than one contractor?
maybe a full survey of radiators for EDR is a first next step,
and confirming the boiler is proper size,
maybe it needs sections,

and for the venting,
In apartment situations, do you really want adjustables where tenants will fiddle, and getting back in later will be painful(?),

yeah, slow down the hot rads, and maybe you pick up steam for the cold floor,
or, is the boiler right sized?

STEAM DOCTOR

lcmech said:

Turned off 3 of the rad valves completely disconnected the rad from it opened the valve completely and nothing could see right into the black nipple however one of the 3 i disconnected did get a faint bit of steam coming out but nothing to heat anything up. 

Are you 100% sure that it's actually open? Jessica may have broken off and is partially sealing or completely sealing opening. Maybe take off the top of the valves and check

lcmech

Yes 100% I can see the disc of the inside of the rad valve going up and down and into the black nipple coming from floor into valve 

neilc

who is Jessica, and how did she get involved?

STEAM DOCTOR

Haven't the faintest idea. I was voice typing and somehow that emerged. Your guess is as good as mine. 

STEAM DOCTOR

Should have said "the disk".

STEAM DOCTOR

Hope my wife is not following this thread. Death by Heating Help Wall. What a way to go!!!

EBEBRATT-Ed

@lcmech Is the boiler building any pressure. Seems strange it won't heat the lower floor but does heat up above.

Could there be a broken/frozen pipe so that it can't build steam? Using a lot of water? Pipes run through an unoccupied area leaking like in a crawl space?

dabrakeman

This is on the second floor right? I assume the riser continues up past the cold radiator to the third floor and then the 4th and those radiators are hot? Don't have a schematic and probably oversimplifying but it seems the problem has to be between the riser and the problem radiator(s) on the second floor if everything is fine further up on the third and fourth floors. Is there a section of pipe that goes from the riser to the radiator valve that could have lost pitch and is trapping water blocking the steam?

lcmech

Put adjustable air vents on 3rd and 4th floor tried my best to hide dial so tenants can’t see it to mess with it and sure enough 2nd floor heating up now. 

ScottSecor

You did what I was trying to offer in my post above and my private message. "Are the warm radiators "stealing" all of the steam and while the cold radiators suffer?"

Only so much steam to go around, need to balance system. As you know goal is to get every radiator hot at roughly the same time. In apartment buildings this can be a challenge, but more often than not you can get pretty close.

Congrats on solving the puzzle.