New Weil Boiler

jesmed1

hot_rod said:

jesmed1 said:

corgi11 said:

LRCCB Why don't you think a new boiler with 73k ibr net won't work where the old boiler of 73 k net worked? This setup has worked for the 37 years I have owned this house.

He's not saying it won't work, he's saying it's sized just right for your design temps. However, he is pointing out that if you have sustained high winds at -10 degrees, the "wind chill" will cool the house a lot faster, and you might not be able to maintain 75 degrees on that extreme day.

But if you did have an extremely windy day at -10 with your old 73k IBR net boiler and it did manage to maintain 75 degrees anyway, then your new boiler should keep up too.

I don't think houses feel "wind chill:) ?

Wind will add infiltration load, anywhere air can leak into the structure.

But the temperature will be the same on the outside of the home weather the wind is blowing or not

Convective cooling of any surface will be increased by airflow over it. Imagine you have two sealed cardboard boxes, sealed in such a way that no air goes in or out. Each box has a thermometer inside, and each starts out at the same internal temperature.

Now imagine you put those boxes in a cold room at the same temperature. One box is in still air; the other has a fan blowing the cold air over it. You would discover that the air temperature inside the box with cold air blowing over it dropped faster than the one inside the box in still air, because blowing cold air over the box increases the convective heat transfer from the box surface and cools it faster. And the faster the surface cools, the faster heat conducts from inside the box through the box walls.

Of course, in the real world, most houses leak, and the main effect of wind is to transfer some outside air into the house, so the effect of leakage is important. But convective heat transfer does act on building surfaces and does affect the heat load too.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@corgi11
Since there are no exposed screws or nails there has to be a way to take them apart. They had to install them somehow and make the pipe connections. And if they were taken apart to install they can be taken apart to clean and check. Also how do you bleed them there has to be an air vent somewhere.

jesmed1

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@corgi11
Since there are no exposed screws or nails there has to be a way to take them apart. They had to install them somehow and make the pipe connections. And if they were taken apart to install they can be taken apart to clean and check. Also how do you bleed them there has to be an air vent somewhere.

Just have to dig around under 80 years' worth of paint...

corgi11

No air vents just ball valves in basement to close and open each circuit for bleeding.

PHM

What is the high limit set point?

Delta is a bit low - I'd like to see it about 20º.

1/2 board is about 400 BTU's at 150º and about 600 BTU's at 180º So despite the 65,000 J - you were heating with 40,000 BTU's or less per hour with the previous boiler.

And now all you have is 60,000 max radiation - but connected to a 73,000 boiler.

Baseboard elements are all perfectly clean?

Dampers are all 100% open?

If so; you need less gas to the burners.

PHM
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corgi11 said:

I just replaced an American Standard ArcoLiner Boiler that was converted to natural gas 1954. The plate said 1 GPH oil 73000 btu output water. I just replaced it with a new Weil 100,000 btu in and 73000 IBR net out.
I live in Chicago suburbs. I ran a modified J calculation and it came out to around 70,000 btu. I have about 100 feet of old Triad baseboard all parallel runs one run for each room all 1/2 inch. With my old heavy boiler it would run for about 30 min and the temp went up to maybe 140 to 150 at 40 degrees out. My new boiler only holds 2.5 gal of water so after about 20 min or less it runs up against high limit and does that until thermostat is satisfied. Pump keeps running until thermostat is satisfied and all runs are very hot. I checked and there is an equivalent pump on the new boiler.
Is this just the nature of the new beast.

corgi11

High limit 205. have about 100 feet of old Triad baseboard ( 6 inch high fins about 1/8 in space between fins, steel covers with slots in the top front.) Water circulates through the bottom and top of all the baseboards all 1/2 inch parallel runs.  Baseboards are 9 inch height.House built 1954 storm windows with minimal insulation. Just as a courtesy where do you live? Chicago suburbs have a design temp of -10 and we are seniors and keep our house at 75 all winter. That is an 85 degree rise. All boilers are oversized until you hit your design temp.These baseboards put out about 780 BTU per ft at 205. I have very high vaulted ceilings and floor to ceiling windows. I have ever rarely been to a single family house in Chicago area that has a furnace or boiler under 75,000 BTU net or IBR. Do you live in a warmer climate?
I appreciate your answer. Finally fired it up again and it high limit only once and then it settled in once thermostat is satisfied the first time.No dampers, baseboards clean  Outdoor temp at 40.

corgi11

Thanks to you all, everything fine after last rebalance.

Will check again after it gets really cold here 

corgi11

This message is for edtheheater man. I found the original install and users guide from 1953. There is a statement that says use this boiler with hot water only. That's why there was only a water rating plate no steam.

hot_rod

Some boilers have multiple controls, the operating control and the high limit, usually set at a high temperature for the safety factor if the operating limit fails. Are you looking at the high limit, or the operating control setting?

Measure the actual temperature at pipe leaving the boiler.

Any dirt or dust streaking on the walls? High temperature SWT on fin tube type emitters cause the fast conductive air currents to pick up airborne dust. Usually some dark colored streaks above the baseboard.
Really dark streaks if you burn candles

An outdoor reset control might be a good option. It would adjust boiler temperature based on outdoor temperature. No need to run 205 on mild days.

Fuel savings to be had by modulating water temperature, also.

Triad

I have the Triad baseboards and would like to know the btu ratings. Here are some pictures

Triad

p.s. The end caps are 10" tall and 2.5" deep. These two radiators are 3' each.
The fins are exactly 2" deep by 6" tall and they are spaced 1/4" apart.

Triad

p.s.s. I replaced these baseboards and would like to reuse them elsewhere in the house. Smith HE2 baseboard has the dual tube setup and claim 25% increased output when the two pipes are plumbed in parallel vs in series (911 vs 725 btu/ft). Would that boost apply to the triads also?

corgi11

Steamhead was nice enough to look this up and posted this in the triad baseboard thread I had started. Thanks again steamhead.

I looked this up in my "Hydronic Rating Handbook". The closest thing I can find has 5-1/4"x1-7/8" fins, two 1/2" tubes running thru them, 40 fins per foot and an inclined outlet. This has a rating of 780 BTU per foot with a cover 10-1/2" high and 905 with a 14-1/4" high cover. Since your fins are a bit bigger but the cover is not that high, I would think 780 BTU per foot is a reasonable number.

Triad

One of the baseboards had a gray panel in it that said "Andrews Tentax Asbestos & Rubber Chicago" The word Tentax is larger print so maybe that is the model and Andrews Asbestos & Rubber is the company name
I got a copy of the Hydronic Rating Handbook. I saw there was a Union Asbestos & Rubber Co. in Chicago. It says the heating division was acquired by Kritzer Radiant Coil Co. It looks like Kritzer incorporated the triad designs in their baseboards.
Kritzer has several models listed with the dual 1/2" tube. The standard baseboard on page 488 looks the closest. Model SBC-4 has 4 fins per inch which is correct. It has 696 btu/ft at 180F

corgi11

Would you mind posting the ratings of the Kritzer SBC-4 baseboard up to 215 degrees it would be very helpful. Thank you very much.

Triad

corgi11

Thank you very much

corgi11

The SBC-5 is just like mine. I have 6 fins per inch and some of them have the damper on them with the knob control.

Triad

One of my radiators had a damper, just a metal flap under the fins 2" wide and the length of the radiator. It pivoted at the back and could be held up at the front with a pull chain. There is a small notch in the cover where a link in the pull chain can catch.

corgi11

Triad one last question. Do you think those ratings are for 2 parallel lines for each baseboard. All my baseboards are 1 line going into the bottom making a u turn and coming out the top? Or the other way around.

corgi11

Hey Triad my baseboard has a knob you can turn in the center of the top of baseboard which lowers and raises a full length damper. The knob turns a concentric ring with an arm that raises and lowers the damper.The damper is at the top of my baseboard and moves down to close the holes and up to open the holes at the top.

Triad

The other Kritzer listings say 1 gpm. I assume these are the same. My radiators are plumbed like yours with a u-bend. I don't see how the pipes being plumbed in parallel or series would change the btu output. Not specifying a difference in the listing makes sense.
Smith’s Environmental Products makes a similar baseboard and says it does make a big difference.
https://smithsep.com/wp-content/uploads/Heating-Edge-2-Literature-2.pdf
I cut the u-bend off and replumbed one spare radiators pipes in parallel with a 3/4" supply. I wanted to use larger supplies because that zone is long. If I get more output also that's even better.
I don't think mine are all the same as far as top or bottom inlet.
The damper control sounds cool. Mine are 1953. Not as fancy.

corgi11

Thanks Triad. My baseboards are from a 1954 build.

corgi11

Triad I just noticed the Kreitzer baseboards like ours are rated in square foot EDR. How does that translate to BTU/ft?

bburd

corgi11 said:

Triad I just noticed the Kreitzer baseboards like ours are rated in square foot EDR. How does that translate to BTU/ft?

For steam EDR, 240 BTU per square foot. For old-school gravity hot water EDR at an average water temperature of 170° F, 170 BTU per square foot.

corgi11

My old boiler was rated at IBR 480 sq ft net of hot water. My baseboard is rated at 864 EDR per sq ft at 180 degrees. Just curious what would have been the maximum length of baseboard that the old boiler could serve?

EdTheHeaterMan

bburd said:

corgi11 said:

Triad I just noticed the Kreitzer baseboards like ours are rated in square foot EDR. How does that translate to BTU/ft?

For steam EDR, 240 BTU per square foot. For old-school gravity hot water EDR at an average water temperature of 170° F, 170 BTU per square foot.

Should be 150 BTU/ft.

The EDR number in the ratings above are BTUh for water and Sq. Ft for Steam. Notice the blank columns for steam. That is because your radiator is not designed for steam.

corgi11 said:

My old boiler was rated at IBR 480 sq ft net of hot water. My baseboard is rated at 864 EDR per sq ft at 180 degrees. Just curious what would have been the maximum length of baseboard that the old boiler could serve?

Your Rad is actually rated at 864 BTU per foot
with 1/2" pipe being able to carry about 15,000 BTUh, noise free, I would say the max length would be between 17 and 18 feet in a series loop. When piped in a parallel or reverse return design then you are only limited by the size of the main and the pump capacity.

corgi11

Thank You

corgi11

Thank You

corgi11

Ed, If you look at the ratings of the sbc 4 and 5 baseboard
all the temps listed are well below steam temps especially the 170 column. I know the temps for those baseboards start at a 215 degree rating but it is common for even slant fin to rate their hot water baseboards at 215 degrees and go down from there.I don't think any of those columns are for steam. I have the SBC 6 baseboards and I think ALL the columns of ratings are for hot water. I have hot water heat.

EdTheHeaterMan

Correct. none of those columns are for steam, only the columns that have a nymber under the SqFt Steam column are steam ratings. since your radiator can not be used for steam, there is no EDR number. look at the other radiators that are able to be used with both steam and water, there is a EDR number in Sq Ft steam that is listed next to the 215 temperature. by the way, that BTU number for 215° is very close to the Stean number if you do the math.

corgi11

Thanks Ed

corgi11

Hi guys finally checking back in. In Chicago suburb low -10 high 0 for over 3 days now. Old boiler American Standard 140,000 BTU in 97000 gross 73,000 IBR net. New boiler Weil 100,000 in 87000 gross. IBR net 73,000.
I can keep house at 75 when it is 0. 70 when it is -10.
House is built 1954. All brick no insulation in walls and 3 in in attic. Casement windows on outside with sliders inside 6 inch space between sliders and casements,1954 storm windows? 20 ft tall ceiling in living room with floor to ceiling windows.
Full 1250 sq ft basement no insulation, house is 1250 sq ft California ranch. 1000 sq ft 1st floor 250 sq ft 2nd floor. 5 parallel 1/2 inch lines. One line for each room. Aquastat set at 210. It takes a while but at -10 it takes a while but it finally hits the high limit.
Some of you guys thought my new boiler was way oversized but I did a heat calc and it came out to about 62000 BTU manual J. I bought the house from the Architect who built my development, he said design was at -10 for 70 degrees interior. New ASHRAE design temp for Chicago 99 per cent temp is 0 degrees f wow to cold for me. I have a total of 100 running feet of high output triad baseboard. 

If my old boiler was 140,000 input and my new boiler is 100,000 input will I really save 40 percent on my bill?

hot_rod

Hopefully the new boiler will be somewhat more efficient, less on off cycling.

It the home and the weather around it that will dictate fuel consumption.

corgi11

But under identical conditions won't the new boiler burn less gas per hour because it is less BTU hr. 100k vs 140k per hour?

ethicalpaul

Yes if you run both boilers for an hour, the smaller one will burn less fuel.

Jamie Hall

corgi11 said:

But under identical conditions won't the new boiler burn less gas per hour because it is less BTU hr. 100k vs 140k per hour?

No. If both boilers are powering the same structure under identical conditions, they will burn the same amount of gas per hour. The bigger boiler will just run less often.

ethicalpaul

That wasn't the question, Jamie! (to be fair, I guess the poster did change the question...his original question was the one you answered)

WMno57

corgi11 said:

If my old boiler was 140,000 input and my new boiler is 100,000 input will I really save 40 percent on my bill?

No.
The input on your previous gas converted oil boiler was not 140,000. I realize the tag said 1 GPH, but you were burning gas. I doubt the conversion was set up to burn exactly 140,000 btus of gas. It would have been interesting to clock the gas meter and see how many BTUs of gas the input was, but that boiler has left the building.
Shooting from the hip I would guess your gas usage (therms not $) will be about 10 percent less, given the same weather. But weather is never a given. If you look up the heating degree days for all of last winter, and compare that to all of this winter, that would be a start. Anything else in your house use gas? Same temperature on thermostat? Heating degree days do not take wind into account. You old house leaks a lot more on windy days (i know mine does).
As I get older, each year I set my thermostat higher and higher.
Too many variables.

corgi11

I'm sorry but if there is no difference in gas used why would anybody bother to do a heat calc on a 1950s house and get a correctly sized boiler. So if my neighbor across the street who started out with gas in his house identical to mine ( half of this development was oil half was gas when they were built) and they just replaced their old 150k boiler with a new weil 140k the difference of our gas usage with me burning 100k on identical weather days makes no difference why bother getting a heat loss and just replace same size with same size? Only gas hot water heating additional nothing else.