Pressuretrol and low pressure gauge

bergensteamguy

Hello, my current pressuretrol is attached to the boiler. I personally am not a fan of the design. Being that close to the boiler will also lead to clogging. Not to mention a half inch pig tail. I heard of folks moving the pressuretrol off the boiler and also including a low pressure gauge. Can anyone make recommendations how this should be piped? I.e. how far from the boiler? Should I connect it from the existing spot and come out with a nipple and an elbow? How far should I pipe it from the boiler, etc. I have never done this and looking for advice.

ethicalpaul

Send a picture of your current situation, but basically you can, instead of a pigtail, use some 1/2" nipples and fittings to make a water trap with drain plugs.

But honestly the pigtail isn't that big of a problem. Every couple years spin off the pressuretrol and blow into the pigtail to ensure it's clear.

Big Ed_4

You want to instal the pressure control to the chest of the boiler before the supply piping . Low pressure gauges are used with low pressure controls like a vapor stat . If your system was installed pre war , it would be recommended to determine if you have one of the low pressure systems that was installed back then . Normally you will see in higher end homes because they were expensive to install . If you have a run of the mill steam systems or if installed post WWII , just use a brass pig tail and a P404 and a normal gauge .

Jamie Hall

Um... well... sometimes, on very low presure systems, the pressure control -- not the safety control - can be advantageously installed on a drop header, if you have one. It will be less sensitive to the bubbles and turbulence in the boiler in that locstion. But that really shouldn't be an issue unless you are working in the single ounces range.

bergensteamguy

@Jamie Hall there is no drop header. Here is a picture. I would be curious to know what would be the best place to install it. @ethicalpaul , below is a picture.

bergensteamguy

see picture @ethicalpaul

Jamie Hall

Looking at the picture, what you've got is about as good as it's going to get. Just keep the pigtails and opening into the boiler clean.

ethicalpaul

I mostly agree with Jamie except I think this is one of those boiler manufacturers that puts the pigtail such that you can't even spin off the pressuretrol due to lack of clearance.

If this is the case you can extend it out with a short nipple and coupling.

You may have to cut the pigtail to get it off unless you want to remove the other stuff that's in the way. This is really a ludicrous setup currently but it's easily solved by extending the pigtail (or a new pigtail) out from the boiler a bit.

If you do replace the pigtail, be sure to buy a brass one not a steel one. The steel ones rust and gunk up much faster.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@bergensteamguy

Cut the existing pigtail off and take the cut off piece out of the boiler. Install a nipple coming out of the boiler and put a tee on the nipple with the branch of the tee looking up. Plug the other run of the tee with a plug for a clean out.

Put a long nipple on the branch of the tee straight up then put on a coupling and then the pigtail and pressure control. This will get the pigtail higher above the water line and will reduce the chance of plugging.

Depending on the length of the nipple coming out of the boiler will determine whether the pressure control will spin without hitting the boiler. Use a long enough nipple or use a union instead of a coupling on the new vertical pipe. Use all 1/4" brass fittings.

bergensteamguy

@EBEBRATT-Ed . thank you for the sound advice.

bergensteamguy

@EBEBRATT-Ed, posting a picture of your suggestion that I fitted. So far, so good. If you have any feedback, let me know. I ended up using the extra branch of the tee to install a low pressure gauge.  

ethicalpaul

I'd recommend altering your layout slightly. Put the pigtail first, then the ptrol and the gauge after it. You want to protect your new gauge from the steam too.

bergensteamguy

@ethicalpaul, I think I am following your recommendation. Are you suggesting to move the tee on top of the pigtail, then add the pressuretrol to the vertical take off and then add the gauge to the branch of the tee?

Jamie Hall

exactly

ethicalpaul

Well actually I would put the pigtail directly into the boiler, horizontally.

Then you can put the elbows, tees, and nipples to arrange the ptrol and the gauge how you like.

You want both the ptrol and the gauge to be protected from steam by the pigtail.

Gordo

@bergensteamguy : If you don't mind telling, how did you get the original pigtail off of your boiler?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Gordo cut it and unscrewed the boiler piece.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@bergensteamguy

If it was me I would put a brass plug in the tee you installed for a clean out. Put a new tee on above the pigtail in place of the coupling and put the gauge and pressure control back on.

I would keep everything as close to the boiler as you reasonably can to reduce leverage on the 1/4" pipe.

There is more than 1 way to do it. But Yes, the pigtail should protect the control and the gauge.

If the pigtail is down low your more apt to get sludge in it. There is no flow in the pipe it's just pressure but keeping the pigtail above the water is a good idea

Gordo

This might be another way of dealing with these non-user friendly p-trol/pigtail situations.
What do you think?
https://youtu.be/57p64_py5QY

bergensteamguy

Gordo said:

@bergensteamguy : If you don't mind telling, how did you get the original pigtail off of your boiler?

I was able to unthread the pigtail from the boiler. I had to move a couple components in order to spin it around. It is possible to do without having to cut the pigtail.

bergensteamguy

Gordo said:

This might be another way of dealing with these non-user friendly p-trol/pigtail situations.
What do you think?
https://youtu.be/57p64_py5QY

that looks like it would definitely work. But you need to be very careful you do not disturb the mechanism on the pressuretrol.

EBEBRATT-Ed

That will work.

Probably will violate the warranty but we do that every day anyhow.LOL

Mad Dog_2

Mad Dog_2

I like my pressuretrols up high out of the maelstrom...I put the 3 psi gauge on the same pigtail and leave the 30 psi where factory wants it  mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Mad Dog_2

Or Old Hitchcock Farm..yes, I need to dust it off...find that LWCO cover!  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

At the higher than average height, I get a better read of the Steam going out.  Some Old timers used  mount the pressuretrol in a Tee on the Header.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Jamie Hall

Mad Dog_2 said:

At the higher than average height, I get a better read of the Steam going out.  Some Old timers used  mount the pressuretrol in a Tee on the Header.  Mad Dog 🐕 

That's where the control vapourstat on Cedric is mounted. Much more stable.

EBEBRATT-Ed

A lot of the old huge HRT boilers with a 8' diameter steam drum x 20' long they would sometimes mount the pressure controls on a manifold mounted on the wall about 6' up and run 3/4" pipe or 3/8 OD copper tubing over to it from the boiler with flare fittings. Otherwise you needed a 10 or 12' step ladder to climb up and adjust the controls.

I never liked that only because I was concerned the pipe or tubing would plug up. So we would put a valve on the tubing or pipe for a blow down.

That was ok except if someone forgot to close the blowdown valve the controls wouldn't sense over pressure with the long run of small pipe feeding the controls.

So I would put the high limit control (or the manual reset now) up on the boiler and just put the modulation control and operating control down on the wall.

Mad Dog_2

I love it...Jamie...who Cedric?  My Man..Cedric The Entertainer???? Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

My Dole Guage is as accurate as the day it left the factory 🏭 over 100 yrs ago . MAD DOG 🐕 

bergensteamguy

Thanks all. @Mad Dog_2 I ended up doing it just like the drawing.  Thanks! The only difference is I used a 5psi Guage instead of 0-3

bergensteamguy

@Mad Dog_2 I noticed that the pressure does not go above .6psi, so not even 1 psi of pressure. I have concerns that the near boiler piping is not the greatest. If the boiler was throwing up wet steam, would this be the cause of lower pressure? I thought it would get much higher. i.e. between 1psi and 2psi. I was surprised to see it only climb to .6psi. i know lower pressure is better, but looking for any insights.

ethicalpaul

It will likely climb higher after all your radiators are fully steam hot. The wet steam doesn't affect the pressure very much in my observations. It is the ability of the steam to travel and/or condense that affects the pressure.

Once your radiators are all hot, their ability to condense steam will slow and the pressure will rise (unless your boiler is undersized).

bergensteamguy

@ethicalpaul , thank you for the feedback. When you explain it, that makes sense. All the radiators have not gotten full of steam, because the weather is still to warm. I will revisit in a month and see where the pressure is. I also did all the calculations of each radiator and compared them to my boiler size. It is sized correctly, so I can definitely rule that out.

ChrisJ

@bergensteamguy

One thing I don't care for is you have an awful lot of leverage there on a small 1/4" brass nipple sticking way out like that. I'd be concerned about that getting broke off.

@Mad Dog_2 's setup is using 1/2" steel and it's a whole lot stronger.

I'd try to get your tee up close by the boiler so that's not sticking so far out.

AdmiralYoda

I second moving it closer to the boiler to prevent it from stressing, but it is probably just fine. Find yourself a 2psi gauge or 30oz so you can really see it. This is assuming your boiler is set to run at 1.5psi max.

bergensteamguy

@ChrisJ , i agree with your observation. it is a lot of weight. there is a 1/4 inch bushing coming out of the boiler. i can remove that in the spring, but in a larger piece and a reducer. that was an idea i thought of

ChrisJ

bergensteamguy said:

@ChrisJ , i agree with your observation. it is a lot of weight. there is a 1/4 inch bushing coming out of the boiler. i can remove that in the spring, but in a larger piece and a reducer. that was an idea i thought of

What about if you install the first tee right on that first nipple sticking out.
And then mount it with the Pressuretrol facing to the right in the picture, towards the black pipe, and the gauge on the left side of it (closest to you) facing towards you? Then it could all be tucked in right by the boiler somewhat.

Unless there's not enough clearance to spin things on.

bergensteamguy

ChrisJ said:

bergensteamguy said:

@ChrisJ , i agree with your observation. it is a lot of weight. there is a 1/4 inch bushing coming out of the boiler. i can remove that in the spring, but in a larger piece and a reducer. that was an idea i thought of

What about if you install the first tee right on that first nipple sticking out.
And then mount it with the Pressuretrol facing to the right in the picture, towards the black pipe, and the gauge on the left side of it (closest to you) facing towards you? Then it could all be tucked in right by the boiler somewhat.

Unless there's not enough clearance to spin things on.

Immediately to the right of that picture is my water heater. The installer left no room there. So I cannot even see the gauges, because there is a water heater in the way. If not, I would do it that way.

KC_Jones

bergensteamguy said:

@Mad Dog_2 I noticed that the pressure does not go above .6psi, so not even 1 psi of pressure. I have concerns that the near boiler piping is not the greatest. If the boiler was throwing up wet steam, would this be the cause of lower pressure? I thought it would get much higher. i.e. between 1psi and 2psi. I was surprised to see it only climb to .6psi. i know lower pressure is better, but looking for any insights.

You don't want pressure, pressure is essentially bad in a steam system.

If you think .6 is low, you should see what @ChrisJ runs. Even mine, if I saw .6 I'd "panic" as to what was wrong...seriously. I have a 0-15 ounce gauge and that's honestly too high, I think I saw 4 ounces once. Most times it sputters down below 1.