Old 1/2" copper not same 1/2" size

wisecrackplumber

Old 1/2" annealed copper not same 1/2" size used today.

Repiping a section of old house water line going to tub valve.

One side is normal size copper, the other is slightly bigger. (Almost enough for the regular 1/2" size pipe (not fitting) to slide into the other older size 1/2" pipe.

Any help with what adapter i may need (the actual adapter name so that I can purchase)

Picture notes- side with female adapter is the larger size. Pics for reference only, i need to adapt to the larger 1/2" copper under house.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

STEAM DOCTOR

Hard to tell from pictures. Might it be 3/4"? Also might be TP (threadless pipe) pipe. TP, is essentially brass pipe and was the predecessor to copper pipe as we know it. Was brass pipe that was soldered. Doesn't look like it from the pictures but what do I know. I am not good with pictures. If it is, you would need a TP adapter. Was burnt by that once or twice in my early days. TP pipe uses larger fittings than regular copper pipe.

Mad Dog_2

TP has the same O.D. as Brass pipe.  Somethings not right.  Are you sure its not ACR tubing or 1/2" O.D. tubing?   Mad Dog 🐕 

wisecrackplumber

She's definitely 1/2", the fitting is brass, pipe is copper.

Mad Dog_2

Hmmm. I see.  Solder it and see what happens. Mad Dog 🐕 

wisecrackplumber

Shes stamped 1/2" on the brass adapter but measures 11/16 od, 5/8 id.

Sorry for the confusion

jesmed1

Here's what I think happened. When I look closely at your pic, where the oversize copper pipe goes into the "1/2" fitting, the oversize copper pipe appears to neck down slightly, as though the end was slightly crimped. I think someone took a hacksaw, cut a slot in the end of that oversize copper pipe, then took a channel-lock plier and crimped the end of the pipe slightly so it would taper slightly, the saw kerf allowing it to collapse just a bit. Then they jammed the now-slight-tapered pipe end into a standard 1/2" fitting, then soldered the heck out of it to prevent the exposed end of that slot from leaking. Which is why there's gobs of solder on the fitting.

So I bet if you heated the heck out of that joint with a brazing torch, melted all the solder and pulled it apart, you'd find that the oversized copper pipe had been modified to taper the end down so it would fit inside the female end of that fitting.

wisecrackplumber

Oh my goodness, i think you may be on to something, looks like im gonna have a bbq tomorrow and find out. Ill post an update. Gotta find an adapter to fit.

realliveplumber

It may have frozen and expanded the pipe. Check the pipe further back

pecmsg

If that pipe ever froze that would explain the slightly larger size. 

Refrigeration tubing goes by OD dimensions 
1/4”, 3/8”,1/2”, 5/8”, 3/4”, 7/8” and on. 

Plumbers use ID

jesmed1

wisecrackplumber said:

Oh my goodness, i think you may be on to something, looks like im gonna have a bbq tomorrow and find out. Ill post an update. Gotta find an adapter to fit.

If you can't find an adapter, you may have to make a similar "field joint." Cut a slot in the end of the oversize pipe, slip the standard 1/2" pipe inside, crimp the oversize pipe down onto the 1/2" pipe so there's good contact for a decent distance along the pipe, then solder using the slot cuts as injection channels for the solder. As long as you have good surface-to-surface copper contact over a sufficient length of pipe, that joint should be just as strong as an adapter. Or for extra insurance, braze it.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@pecmsg
Your right of course refrig goes by OD and plumbing goes by ID but it's the same tubing dimension wise.

ACR is the same dimension as L tubing.

This is true for every size that is made in both types (ACR &L).

There is a slight variation in wall thickness between hard tubing and soft tubing of the same od.

That does not explain why it doesn't fit.


I suspect that the larger tubing has been necked down as @jesmed explained

@wisecrackplumber

Why can't you just make a new one with 1/2" copper , 1 female adapter and one male adapter?

pecmsg

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@pecmsg
Your right of course refrig goes by OD and plumbing goes by ID but it's the same tubing dimension wise.

ACR is the same dimension as L tubing.

This is true for every size that is made in both types (ACR &L).

There is a slight variation in wall thickness between hard tubing and soft tubing of the same od.

That does not explain why it doesn't fit.


I suspect that the larger tubing has been necked down as @jesmed explained

@wisecrackplumber

Why can't you just make a new one with 1/2" copper , 1 female adapter and one male adapter?

As i said i think it froze and expanded!

george_42

The water company near me uses copper tubing ror services that is an odd size and they have special fittings for it, I have also ran into copper that has froze and is now larger but not broken

jesmed1

@realliveplumber and @pecmsg had a good thought that the pipe may have frozen and swelled. I think they're right.

Here's a Reddit thread with the same problem. Someone on the thread had a good solution he had done before. The fix was to heat up an end of one pipe and swage it up slightly until it mates snugly (male into female) with the other pipe. Then solder together.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Plumbing/comments/11cpi7x/odd_size_12_copper_any_advice_ran_into_this/?rdt=59885

The pipe in the Reddit thread was 0.635" OD, which is 0.010" oversize for 1/2", so the freeze only swelled it by ten thousandths. Your swollen pipe OD is 11/16" or 0.68", about 50 thousandths larger than the Reddit pipe, so yours swelled a lot more, almost enough for the 1/2" pipe to slip inside.

So it looks like your fix is to swage the swollen pipe up slightly to 5/8" ID so the 1/2" (with 5/8" OD) will slip in snugly, then solder. Be sure to heat the end thoroughly before swaging to anneal/soften it, and then let it cool. It's been work-hardened by the freezing/swelling, so you risk cracking it if you don't first anneal it before swaging.

Another alternative is to use a flaring tool with a 5/8" hole in the clamp, and clamp the swollen pipe OD back down to 5/8". Then slip a standard 1/2" coupling over it. Two guys in the following thread say they've used that method:

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/1-2-copper-pipe-swelling.26073/

Since you only need to swage up maybe 10-20 thousandths versus clamping down 50 thousandths, I'd go with the swaging.

EdTheHeaterMan

I like the Swaging tool idea!

reggi

I can sound real smart right now, 😉 but then you would expect me to be all the time and I'm not.... that kinda smart 🤓
..
I'm pretty sure everything you need to know to work with what you have in front of you is explained in the following Patent... 
Enjoy and Good luck!

jesmed1

Just for fun, I tried the swaging method myself. I cut a piece of 1/2" copper in half, heated one end cherry red to soften, let it cool, then swaged it open to 5/8" ID using a $10 Home Depot hammer-in swaging tool. Clean and flux mating surfaces, insert the other piece of 1/2" copper, and solder together. Worked like a charm.

The OD of the swaged end is 0.685", almost exactly the same diameter as your 11/16" swelled pipe. So your pipe needs only a tiny bit of swaging to get your new 1/2" copper inside.

EdTheHeaterMan

jesmed1 said:

Just for fun, I tried the swaging method myself. I cut a piece of 1/2" copper in half, heated one end cherry red to soften, let it cool, then swaged it open to 5/8" ID using a $10 Home Depot hammer-in swaging tool. Clean and flux mating surfaces, insert the other piece of 1/2" copper, and solder together. Worked like a charm.

Be very careful about what you post here. You might have just infringed on Mr Recker's Patent 2,040,628. You never know if the mattress tag police are monitoring this forum.

This post has been brought to you by:

Click on Spoiler

ChrisJ

EdTheHeaterMan said:

jesmed1 said:

Just for fun, I tried the swaging method myself. I cut a piece of 1/2" copper in half, heated one end cherry red to soften, let it cool, then swaged it open to 5/8" ID using a $10 Home Depot hammer-in swaging tool. Clean and flux mating surfaces, insert the other piece of 1/2" copper, and solder together. Worked like a charm.

Be very careful about what you post here. You might have just infringed on Mr Recker's Patent 2,040,628. You never know if the mattress tag police are monitoring this forum.

This post has been brought to you by:

Click on Spoiler

That patent was issued in 1936.....

EdTheHeaterMan

ChrisJ said:

EdTheHeaterMan said:

jesmed1 said:

Just for fun, I tried the swaging method myself. I cut a piece of 1/2" copper in half, heated one end cherry red to soften, let it cool, then swaged it open to 5/8" ID using a $10 Home Depot hammer-in swaging tool. Clean and flux mating surfaces, insert the other piece of 1/2" copper, and solder together. Worked like a charm.

Be very careful about what you post here. You might have just infringed on Mr Recker's Patent 2,040,628. You never know if the mattress tag police are monitoring this forum.

This post has been brought to you by:

Click on Spoiler

That patent was issued in 1936.....

There are some very old Mattress Tag Police still alive today. You never know Chris!
My motto: Error on the side of ridiculous.

Chris You just put me over the 5999 comment milestone. Thanks

ChrisJ

EdTheHeaterMan said:

ChrisJ said:

EdTheHeaterMan said:

jesmed1 said:

Just for fun, I tried the swaging method myself. I cut a piece of 1/2" copper in half, heated one end cherry red to soften, let it cool, then swaged it open to 5/8" ID using a $10 Home Depot hammer-in swaging tool. Clean and flux mating surfaces, insert the other piece of 1/2" copper, and solder together. Worked like a charm.

Be very careful about what you post here. You might have just infringed on Mr Recker's Patent 2,040,628. You never know if the mattress tag police are monitoring this forum.

This post has been brought to you by:

Click on Spoiler

That patent was issued in 1936.....

There are some very old Mattress Tag Police still alive today. You never know Chris!
My motto: Error on the side of ridiculous.

Chris You just put me over the 5999 comment milestone. Thanks

Patents are only good for 20 years.

EdTheHeaterMan

But we stretch the truth for for comedic effect. That is why some people have no sense of humor, they are too literal.

That is also why some folks are not mechanically inclined, They can not see things in their minds eye. they need to actually see it.

And that is why some people don't know what a quasi-vapor steam boiler looks like. They can't understand made-up words that are not in the Webster Dictionary.

mattmia2

Warren-Webster?

mattmia2

But if that is very close to a copper tube size you can use copper tube fittings to adapt it, maybe use a solder that is a bit better at gap filling.

EdTheHeaterMan

mattmia2 said:

Warren-Webster?

No... Merriam.

EdTheHeaterMan

mattmia2 said:

But if that is very close to a copper tube size you can use copper tube fittings to adapt it, maybe use a solder that is a bit better at gap filling.

He could just re-plumb the whole place in PEX and be done with it! There I go spending someone else's money. I'm sure them's spouse does enough of that without my help.

ChrisJ

EdTheHeaterMan said:

But we stretch the truth for for comedic effect. That is why some people have no sense of humor, they are too literal.

That is also why some folks are not mechanically inclined, They can not see things in their minds eye. they need to actually see it.

And that is why some people don't know what a quasi-vapor steam boiler looks like. They can't understand made-up words that are not in the Webster Dictionary.

Literally every word that has ever existed was made up.

Not to mention "quasi" is most certainly in the Webster dictionary.

EdTheHeaterMan

Quasi-vapor isn't ...but Ain't was left out for many years because it was considered improper. However it is now, although widely disapproved as nonstandard, and more common in the habitual speech of the less educated, ain't is flourishing in American English. It is used in both speech and writing to catch attention and to gain emphasis.


If we have enough of these type systems perhaps the Webster folks will add it?
Quasi-vapor Quasi-vapor Quasi-vapor Quasi-vapor Quasi-vapor.

Just sayin' if you want to be tecknickel

reggi

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Quasi-vapor isn't ...but Ain't was left out for many years because it was considered improper. However it is now, although widely disapproved as nonstandard, and more common in the habitual speech of the less educated, ain't is flourishing in American English. It is used in both speech and writing to catch attention and to gain emphasis. If we have enough of these type systems perhaps the Webster folks will add it? Quasi-vapor Quasi-vapor Quasi-vapor Quasi-vapor Quasi-vapor. Just sayin' if you want to be tecknickel

What happened to the Quasi Vapor Vacuum System moniker I could of sworn was there first?

ChrisJ

@EdTheHeaterMan. Fair enough

Big Ed_4

I would throw the set up away and make a new one . You don't want to waste the time and add liability to the job .

wisecrackplumber

Well, finished up that repipe job and I gotta tell you big thanks to everyone here with the help. 

This crawlspace was 13 inches from the bottom of the floor joists in most places- needless to say the only way to roll over on my back and work was to go up in between the joists- btw the way, why is it that every low crawlspace is littered with broken bricks? Its a curious thing.

There was a small space between the chimney and the bath tub faucet, any soldering would have been sketchy at best- not enough room to break a fart I'll tell ya that, let alone a torch.

(By the way- jesmed very good work, that looks very clean and solid) 

I told my customer it probably froze and expanded- (many thanks to you guys), and that its better to replace and thats what we did, good call.

After pulling it out, it appeared the copper had swollen so I'm pretty confident thats exactly what it was.

Sorry for the late post response, been getting after it.

Thanks again

jesmed1

Thanks for the report. I learned something too.

Mad Dog_2

Funk & Wagnalls...Mad Dog 🐕 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Almost every crawl space I have been it means no lights (even if they have them the bulbs are shot)., mice, bricks, rocks broken glass cobwebs and climbing over sewer pipes and the wiring is usually just strung around and hanging everywhere.

realliveplumber

A few years back, the gc told us that the new addition over a crawlspace was ready for a rough. Hvac, kitchen, bath laundry.

You kind of need to be mentally prepared cause you know you got a whole week of "man this sucks. Damn masons and there jagged rough finish that cuts you to shreds " some are so rough you cant even wheel around on a creeper.

When we arrived at the job and got in the crawl, it was troweled smooth as silk. Most finish work i see in basements and garages isnt half as good.

I asked the gc who did the job, it was a guy that has been in town for a while, first time he used him.

I got his number and called him to thank him.

And hes has done lots of work for me ever since.

Mad Dog_2

Don't forget rats, snakes, feral cats, broken glass, backed up sewage piles, sharp metal, and when I worked at Rikers Island Prison, ecaped convicts!  It's not wonder very few Apprentices and helpers stick it out...Its rough.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Solid_Fuel_Man

The joys of being self employed..... some (most) times I'm just "too busy" when there is a nasty crawlspace involved....