Ball valve inside on oil supply line against code?

seized123

I read somewhere it might be against code to install ball valves inside on the oil supply line in addition to the required Firomatic(s). Something about if there's a ball valve then people wouldn't "exercise" the Firomatics by closing and then opening them annually, which the manual says to do.

So far I can't find anything in NFPA 31or the New York State Mechanical Code on this. Did I imagine it? If true, it seems ridiculous to me; I would like a ball valve in addition to the Firomatic because I'd rather not use the Firomatic as a shutoff, I get the impression they're not really designed for that, and they leak or fail (mine are leaking, they will get replaced but I'd rather have a nice solid ball valve when I need to shut off supply).

Robert O'Brien

It's a state of Massachusetts rule, although any AHJ can do whatever they want

seized123

Interesting, haven't figure out who my AHJ is yet, but isn't Mass. usually ahead of the game involving this kind of stuff, so maybe they have good reasons? No big deal to just use the Firomatic as shutoff, then, one less fitting. I'll have a ball valve outside at the tank in case I ever have to change out the Firomatic.

Mad Dog_2

Not that I have found.  I put them in new installs to isolate the Garber Filter.  Never questioned.  Mad Dog 🐕 

seized123

I am totally confused trying to figure out what exactly is code with respect to ball valves, like as shutoffs at the top of an aboveground tank and inside as a service shutoff. @Mad Dog_2 your point is well taken that nobody has ever questioned them when you've put them in. But on this forum I have read that anything other than a Firomatic as a shutoff is against code, period. I believe @STEVEusaPA has said that several times. But I also read that certain ones can be used, or that they can be used in addition to the required Firomatics (which is what I would do), I believe @EBEBRATT-Ed mentioned that (and that was in Mass., which I understand is strict on stuff), Yet @STEVEusaPA is adamant that they are against code, period. Can you see why I'm confused? Here is the thread I was reading this on:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/189094/why-cant-i-find-this-part

As I mentioned, I have found nothing in NFPA 31 or the New York State Mechanical Code that specifically prohibits them. I know AHJ's can do what they want, but @STEVEusaPA, or anyone, what code are they against?

(To make matters worse, I was talking with a Home Depot guy (I was there for non-plumbing stuff) with almost as many decades as an oil heat tech as I've been alive (and I'm not young) who said ball valves anywhere on the oil lines are against code because they have packing in them.)

seized123

… To clarify my last post, I’m not talking about ball valves instead of the required Firomatics, but in addition to them, like a ball valve as outside shutoff.

Mad Dog_2

They have to be approved for use with fuel oil...not all valves are..  Why don't  you just call the inspector?  Is this  rhetorical debate?  You could have installed them, taken them out, and put back together by now!!!  Ha ha 😂 🤣 😆 😄 .  If inspector is ok with it,, go for it...No leaks!!  Mad Dog 

seized123

That’s the problem: what inspector? If there is one he is so deep undercover regular people like me could never find him, I called the buildings dept and they were clueless, they said they don’t inspect this stuff, I’m pretty sure they don’t issue permits for it. I haven’t asked my oil company, though. But yeah, you’re right, in this time I could have put in the ball valves and the Firomatics and some check valves and a nuclear back-pressure uranium valve and a flux capacitor and tore the whole system out and put up a windmill (but I will keep asking even when that’s done, just cuz I want to know).
And yup you’re right I am making sure to use WOG valves.

Mad Dog_2

Just curious? Is this a remote town upstate New York or something?  The further you get away from Cities and Towns, the more likely this becomes the case. I have a few questions I've been asking anyone who might know, since I started in the business..I still get vague and ambiguous answers!   I'm going to ask my Oil friend and Oil Heat savant, Alan Mercurio this question for you. His word is Gospel.  Ill be back.  Mad Dog 🐕 

seized123

Just north of the City, but far enough so there are cows around. 

Thanks for checking with Mr. Mercurio. It’s not a rhetorical question though, the idea of all of this is to update my system so it meets code and has the best kind of shutoff (and to switch to one-pipe). So I read on this forum that ball valves are definitely NG, Firomatics only, but have found nothing official that says this. Flustrating.

STEVEusaPA

First of all I'm not 'adamant' against them. Just telling you what the code is. If you have an outside tank, gravity draw and put one at the bottom, you're not against code. Firomatic required first on inside tank, then one at the burner by code.
If outside tank, firomatic where oil line first enters the building, then one at burner. No where does it say to put a firomatic outside.
On a gravity job I'm not going thru the hassle of replacing a firomatic at the tank on the fly, via the vacuum trick (because it ain't going to fail when the tank is empty).
So don't stick one outside, install the tank and line to code, leave it empty, after inspection, go put a ball valve on? Is that what you're hoping someone will say?

I definitely wouldn't top draw an outside tank AND put a ball valve at the bottom. That could freeze up as water inevitably finds it's way there. Then it'll burst, drain your tank, and you're in a world of sh!t.

Either you're in a jurisdiction where there are inspectors/fire marshalls who know what they are doing and the code, or you're not. I'm in one where they don't know, don't really care, and I usually have to tell them the code. Of course there's still a fee to be paid.

You want to throw more into the mix? In many parts of Europe they require the oil dearater outside. You'll see it in the manufacturer's installation manuals. I really wouldn't even want to try that for many obvious reasons. They also allow single wall plastic oil tanks there and we don't here, so shrug and move on.

Some code stuff...(italics are my thoughts)
8.7.1
(3) Provided with a shut off valve at the outlet, for an above-ground tank.
(4) Provided with a shut off valve where an oil line enters a building, for an underground tank.
8.7.3 A readily accessible fusible link safety valve shall be installed: [Shall always means MUST when it comes to code] .
(1) As close as practical to the burner(s) supply connection.
(2) Immediately upstream of the filter and inside the building, if the piping passes through the foundation

8.10.6 A readily accessible fusible link safety shutoff valve...shall be installed at each of the following points:
(1) Within 6 in. of the filter on the tank side of the filter
(2) Within 12 in. of the inlet connection to the burner.
So you'll have 2 plus 1 at each inside tank.


8.7.6 Unions or fittings that require gaskets or packings shall not be used in fuel lines.

Now the one even I misquoted/misspoke about in the past...
8.7.7 Fuel Return Piping
A return line from a burner or a pump back to a supply tank shall have no valves or obstructions except for a hard seat or ball valve that shall be left in the open position, with the handle removed, and shall enter the top of the same tank..
So if you are doing 2 pipe, back to a tank, both lines have to go into the top.
If you look at the accompanying drawings in the code book showing fusible link valves, none of the diagrams show an outside tank

Clear as mud? LOL

seized123

Thanks for the reply, @STEVEusaPA. I have now asked 439 questions, and you have given me more helpful answers than I can count.

This is the quote from that other thread that is confusing me: "The fusible link valve (firomatic) is the only shut-off you should use (by code)." So if ball valves are against code even if you have the required Firomatics, what section says that? I don't see anything in what you've quoted. As you say, NFPA requires a shutoff up top at the outlet of an aboveground, and if what you say is true then I have to have a Firomatic up top of the tank.

BUT!!!: I notice that you quote 8.7.6, which on my online version of NFPA 31 says: "Unions or fittings that require gaskets or packings used in fuel lines shall be listed to UL 180, Standard for Combustible Liquid Tank Accessories." And ball valves have packings! So is that where you're getting that ball valves are no good, although we can add "unless they conform to UL 180?" And maybe that's what the guy in HD was referring to about packings. I have bought 2 ball valves for this, (in addition to 2 Firomatics); one BV has the little UL circle on it, but how do I know that it complies with UL 180? (Call the company, I guess.)

I know I could have had this all done by now if I had just taken the practical just get 'er done advice and not worried too much about code. But part of my reason for updating the line is to make it all code compliant - and I'm learning that finding someone who knows the code, or cares, ain't easy. (I think my jurisdiction is like yours, no permit required for this work, apparently no one inspects this stuff except maybe when you put a new boiler in, so it might not matter unless something happens, but that's the point, it would matter then, and I have heard enough about insurance adjusters ...they know the code! And I have had three techs (all older) come out here and all three didn't know that you should not have any valve in the return line (in NYS it's stricter than NFPA: no valve not even a ball valve with the handle off) and they didn't know what an anti-siphon valve or OSV was. Tough on a homeowner who wants to know exactly what code is and it would be just too easy to abandon the whole idea of being strict about it.)

STEVEusaPA said:

So don't stick one outside, install the tank and line to code, leave it empty, after inspection, go put a ball valve on? Is that what you're hoping someone will say?

No, I'm keeping the old tank, and I'm trying to do the opposite of what you suggest: I'm trying to install a line that is strictly up to code. I was just saying I don't yet see how it's not code to use a BV up top, although now with 8.7.6 I think I see what's going on: use a Firomatic or an approved ball valve, but to be strictly on code you have to know whether your valve is approved. This agrees with some advice I recently got from a very knowledgeable person: BVs are okay if approved. My problem now is how do you know if its approved, UL 180 and all that, (is the little UL circle all you need?) WOG might not be enough. Sheesh!

Maybe I should buy a Franklin stove and heat with wood, or do deep breathing like Wim Hof and keep warm that way, no code for breathing. Well, there is: National Breathing Code 13.7.2: DO NOT forget to breathe.

pecmsg

Bottom line. Does it matter? If you want a ball valve install it. If the inspector complains remove it. 

seized123

No inspector, apparently nobody inspects this stuff here - if they did, that would actually make my life easier, and I wouldn't be asking all these questions! So yes it would only matter as much as knowing the code and sticking with it matters, in other words it doesn't matter at all unless something goes wrong and the insurance adjustor comes, then it would matter, and that's sort of been my approach. My whole idea was to update my system to code - easier said than done if nobody around here in my locality so far knows what code is. (I think I'm homing in on it, though, with help from this forum.)

pecmsg

Than call the insurance company?

EBEBRATT-Ed

I have serious doubts about ball valves being "against code". I have never seen that in writing anywhere and it is virtually impossible.

Look at commercial jobs with multiple boilers, multiple burners and duplex (meaning 2) oil pumps 1 to run and 1 for back up? How do you isolate burners and pumps for service and repair??? That's right.....you cant. Valves are always installed on those jobs....gate valves in the old days and ball valves for the last 40 or so years

I have never seen an oil code with different requirements for commercial and residential. I have seen different sections written for 'light oil" (#1 or #2) versus "heavy oil" #4 & #6.

I would love to have @retiredguy or @RayWohlfarth chime in on this

seized123

Yup, I could call the insurance company, I doubt anyone I'd speak to would know much other than to say You must follow local code, but it's a good idea, might try it.
Thanks @EBEBRATT-Ed, that's kind of what I thought - and you're in Mass, aren't you, which tends to be stricter codewise than most places?
Of course there comes a point where I can keep inquiring about this later if I want but meanwhile get the darn stuff installed. WOG.

This stuff is so interesting to an outsider like me that I was poised to register for HVAC1 at my local county-run trade school for this fall, but I missed the posting and it got filled in a day, though I got on the waiting list.

RayWohlfarth

I have seen lots of oil systems here with a ball valve. The only issue I have is I remove that handle so someone doesn't close the valves while running. I use a piece of wire to hold than handle close by. I would suggest a full port ball valve to reduce the turbulence I believe by doing it this way, the valves are used only for isolating the system. Good luck

seized123

Thanks, yup, full port it is.

seized123

I think I found more specifically what I was looking for. According to the NY State Mechanical code 1307.1 it looks like for my outside aboveground tank I am required to have a shutoff valve outside - currently there is no shutoff at all out there - and this can be at the tank (mine is top-feed, so that's where it'll go). The section goes on to say that "Valves shall comply with UL 842" and that's apparently the only requirement. I ordered Apollo ball valves that specifically state they comply with UL 842, so all good, I should be up to code.

(BTW, I even called Apollo to make sure these valves are good for oil - it seems the term "WOG" is old and phasing out and they don't use it - and the person told me that this series, 94ALF-a, is made in China. I thought most Apollos were made in the US or non-China countries, what gives? Maybe it's just this valve series, but it's a pretty basic valve. Apparently Apollo is now owned by something called Aalberts Integrated Piping Systems (Dutch, which is why the two 'A's are not a typo). The website implies that all their stuff is made in S.C....?)

Mad Dog_2

Apollo has been the Gold Standard for Ball Valves since the inception of ball valves. They were always top qaulity and what hospitals 🏥, High Rises and all commercial buildings' house plumbers insisted upon. They were completely made in USA 🇺🇸 up until, what ? 10-12 years ago when they offered the Apollo "International" line (Made in China). 

The Wolverine Brass (Made in USA) valves, always a close equal to Apollo, and cheaper, just got bought out and sadly are closing the American Manufacturing plant in South Carolina.  Apparently, the EPA came in a few years ago and hit them with 3.5 million in upgrades, clean up and compliance. Wolverine Brass was ready to do it to save the factory and American Jobs.  In the meantime, they got bought out by a Big Multinational and they, coldly, said NO! We'll just make them in China, No EPA, no real  pollution standards.  

Who knows how long  Apollo (Conbraco)
will stay here???  Very sad.  Mad Dog 🐕 

seized123

Yeah, “Apollo International” is what it says on the ones that just came from Supplyhouse. I’ll use ‘em, cause I got’em, but is there any Gold Standard valve manufacturer left?

Robert O'Brien

STEVEusaPA said:

First of all I'm not 'adamant' against them. Just telling you what the code is. If you have an outside tank, gravity draw and put one at the bottom, you're not against code. Firomatic required first on inside tank, then one at the burner by code.
If outside tank, firomatic where oil line first enters the building, then one at burner. No where does it say to put a firomatic outside.
On a gravity job I'm not going thru the hassle of replacing a firomatic at the tank on the fly, via the vacuum trick (because it ain't going to fail when the tank is empty).
So don't stick one outside, install the tank and line to code, leave it empty, after inspection, go put a ball valve on? Is that what you're hoping someone will say?

I definitely wouldn't top draw an outside tank AND put a ball valve at the bottom. That could freeze up as water inevitably finds it's way there. Then it'll burst, drain your tank, and you're in a world of sh!t.

Either you're in a jurisdiction where there are inspectors/fire marshalls who know what they are doing and the code, or you're not. I'm in one where they don't know, don't really care, and I usually have to tell them the code. Of course there's still a fee to be paid.

You want to throw more into the mix? In many parts of Europe they require the oil dearater outside. You'll see it in the manufacturer's installation manuals. I really wouldn't even want to try that for many obvious reasons. They also allow single wall plastic oil tanks there and we don't here, so shrug and move on.

Some code stuff...(italics are my thoughts)
8.7.1
(3) Provided with a shut off valve at the outlet, for an above-ground tank.
(4) Provided with a shut off valve where an oil line enters a building, for an underground tank.
8.7.3 A readily accessible fusible link safety valve shall be installed: [Shall always means MUST when it comes to code] .
(1) As close as practical to the burner(s) supply connection.
(2) Immediately upstream of the filter and inside the building, if the piping passes through the foundation

8.10.6 A readily accessible fusible link safety shutoff valve...shall be installed at each of the following points:
(1) Within 6 in. of the filter on the tank side of the filter
(2) Within 12 in. of the inlet connection to the burner.
So you'll have 2 plus 1 at each inside tank.


8.7.6 Unions or fittings that require gaskets or packings shall not be used in fuel lines.

Now the one even I misquoted/misspoke about in the past...
8.7.7 Fuel Return Piping
A return line from a burner or a pump back to a supply tank shall have no valves or obstructions except for a hard seat or ball valve that shall be left in the open position, with the handle removed, and shall enter the top of the same tank..
So if you are doing 2 pipe, back to a tank, both lines have to go into the top.
If you look at the accompanying drawings in the code book showing fusible link valves, none of the diagrams show an outside tank

Clear as mud? LOL

An earlier edition of NFPA31 didn't allow valves in return lines and an even earlier edition required 2" vents. Both have been changed

seized123

New York State says no valves at all though. They had to put their 2 cents in.

Mad Dog_2

I honestly can't think of any, but many of us get stuck on a certain brand for high quality & reliability over decades, so we never look around. For instance, NIBCO (Trivia...who knows what that stands for? Dan, Steamhead I bet) was always high quality AND made in USA 🇺🇸 but, they'll sold in Home Depot, so I got turned off. I'll use them a pinch.  

Just Since I began I mid 1980s, we had

Jenkins, Hammond, A.Y. Mc Donald, Stockham, NIBCO, Conbraco (Apollo), Milwaukee, Wolverine Brass...ALL Higj Qaulity Made in USA 🇺🇸...They're still going to be better than the rest.   

Mad Dog 🐕