Newer classic radiators leaking between sections

GGross

About 3 years ago I sold a bunch of cast iron "classic" radiators, These are the style with the threaded nipples, and gaskets. the house had frozen and everything needed to be replaced. Fast forward to today, and the contractor had been called out to check on some leaks. It looks like they are leaking between many sections, I have verified it is leaking from both factory made connections, and field made connections, but only seem to be leaking between radiator sections, there are no leaks in the installers pipework.

I've been waiting to hear back from the manufacturer and wondering if anyone here has some ideas in the mean time

forced hot water system
12 PSI cold fill
~20% glycol
Inhibitor test came back with a ph around 8.5

It's hard to tell from the pics, but most every section is leaking, even the ones that are not visible, I can't find the better pic I had that you could see little water spots under the rads lined up perfect with the section joints

mattmia2

Are they rated for glycol? Certain types of synthetic rubber don't get along well at all with glycol.

WMno57

If the sections are factory joined with threaded nipples, how is the connection at both the top and bottom made? Are you sure they are not push nipples?

kcopp

Im not a fan of glycol. With only 20% glycol in the system the amount of inhibitor is probably lean and it may have contributed to the issues.
What is the piping in the rest of the system like? All steel and copper? and pex? all O2 barrier stuff?

GGross

mattmia2 said:

Are they rated for glycol? Certain types of synthetic rubber don't get along well at all with glycol.

Their factory said up to 50% glycol mix

WMno57 said:

If the sections are factory joined with threaded nipples, how is the connection at both the top and bottom made? Are you sure they are not push nipples?

everything I can find on this series is that they are a threaded nipple with gasket connections. Some of the sections needed to be field assembled and the kit they send for field assembly includes a threaded nipple, and 2 fiber gaskets for each connection point. I don't deal with radiators like this too often, they aren't that common in my area. My understanding was that most of the modern ones of this style have gaskets, but it is possible the factory connections are push nipples. I got conflicting information from the manufacturer, a tech said there are gaskets, and a sales person said there are no gaskets (although the sales person did not know the field assembly kit comes with threaded nipples and gaskets either)

kcopp said:

Im not a fan of glycol. With only 20% glycol in the system the amount of inhibitor is probably lean and it may have contributed to the issues.
What is the piping in the rest of the system like? All steel and copper? and pex? all O2 barrier stuff?

I was wondering if the inhibitor was just low, they said they tested it and it was ok. I do know the fluid sample we got was pretty clear so at least it is not destroying the cast iron inside. I believe the piping in the system is a mix of black/pex/copper. Any pex would be barrier pex



The manufacturer was unable to offer any additional guidance, they want to take one of the radiators back and replace under warranty. They don't want us to take any of them apart in the field, I want to just to see if gaskets have deteriorated. My concern is that if they don't find a factory defect I'll be right back at the start wondering what the problem is. I don't think it's a factory defect personally

psb75

Those rads are definitely NOT the push-nipple variety. They would have to have rods pulling the sections together. These don't. These are the (dreaded) threaded nipple type which are very hard to work with if they have been long in service and/or if they are leaking. I have a freeze-broken rad like this that I have taken apart and have exposed the rusted-in threaded nipple. I also noticed that there is a cast-in "seat" for a gasket. It's very hard to get old rusted nipples out. Push nipple radiators are also difficult but easier to repair than threaded nipples.

Jamie Hall

OKJ. Now I'm curious. @psb75 , or someone else who has worked with these things, can you please enlighten me? Now do you get the nipples tight and pull the sections together? How do apply torque to them to get the gaskets to seal?

psb75

Good question Jaime! I would like to know the answer as well. I have seen information somewhere...that says "Don't even TRY."

GGross

@Jamie Hall @psb75

Kind of embarrassing as I sold these and didn't really have much experience with them, So I don't have good first hand knowledge of actually doing this myself. Attached is a section regarding the threaded nipples. As I said before I am not sure if this is how the sections are fitted together in the factory, but I would assume it is a similar connection

psb75

Thank you GGross for that link! Of course...the "right tools" for the job! Again I will restate that long installed and rusted threaded nipples are a nightmare to remove...even with the "right tools."
I don't know where to acquire those tools. ?? There are pictures of them in the link but no nomenclature to refer to them--other than "assembly tools."

mattmia2

I notice the left/right nipples in the instructions look a lot less sketchy than yours.

My bet is on factory defect, either the nipples weren't tight enough or the seats for the gaskets weren't square enough or smooth enough. I would probably assemble them with rtv coating the gaskets and teflon dope on the nipples so they have some chance of coming apart in the future.

GGross

@psb75

I just cut out a section of the install manual, the next page after where my attachment ends gives the part numbers etc. Installing contractor still has the tools for assembly. One of the reps was very concerned about taking these apart as well. Being that these are only 3 years old they may still come apart easily, but there are around 200 sections of radiators, and at least half the section joints are leaking very slightly. I can't imagine that going smoothly even under the best circumstances, not to mention the amount of time it would take

GGross

mattmia2 said:

I notice the left/right nipples in the instructions look a lot less sketchy than yours.

My bet is on factory defect, either the nipples weren't tight enough or the seats for the gaskets weren't square enough or smooth enough. I would probably assemble them with rtv coating the gaskets and teflon dope on the nipples so they have some chance of coming apart in the future.

Yeah I see that now. I'm going to look back at my emails, the rep had put together a parts list back then for us, based on the quantity and number of sections we needed for each room. We copied the existing radiator layout as the insurance company wanted a direct replacement of everything when the original system froze. Looking at the install manual the nipple kit I have is a different part number than what is listed, but that is not entirely uncommon

GGross

I did find the original install manual I sent the customer back when we sold this. I can't find this one anywhere now, the nipples look a little more similar to what I have here

mattmia2

Oh, those are like a roll pin that is threaded, it isn't at all like a traditional left/right nipple, it relies entirely on the gasket for the seal. The ones in that catalog have a split, yours don't. The split I think lets the sections tighten together if there are a couple threads difference between the 2 sides and helps keep them from binding in general.

Karl Reynolds

Those appear to be Burnham's "Classic" radiators based on the look and the literature. If I'm not mistaken,
Burnham sources them from Governale Industries in Brooklyn, NY 718-272-2300. They may be a better resource for your needs.

GGross

Karl Reynolds said:

Those appear to be Burnham's "Classic" radiators based on the look and the literature. If I'm not mistaken,
Burnham sources them from Governale Industries in Brooklyn, NY 718-272-2300. They may be a better resource for your needs.

I appreciate it, I had already contacted Governale and they unfortunately were not able to assist

Jamie Hall

OK -- thank you. I see how it's done... with the special tool and all. No thank you. I'll stick to push nipples.

psb75

But, I've gotta salvage some rads with threaded nips. Not gonna scrap 'em unless I have to.
Warm cast iron is a lovely and efficient thing.

StevieD

psb75 said:

Thank you GGross for that link! Of course...the "right tools" for the job! Again I will restate that long installed and rusted threaded nipples are a nightmare to remove...even with the "right tools."
I don't know where to acquire those tools. ?? There are pictures of them in the link but no nomenclature to refer to them--other than "assembly tools."

Castrads sells an assembly tool set: https://www.castrads.com/us/product/radiator-assembly-toolkit-atk2/

hot_rod

Those fiber washers can be tough to seal with glycol in the system.
Why such a weak 20%? Might just go with plain water?

If I were to assemble those I would use Loctite on the threads, with the fiber gaskets also.

GGross

@hot_rod

I'm not sure why they went so weak with glycol, usually this company uses maybe a bit too much. I agree it would almost make more sense to just use plain water at that point.