Firomatic as outside shutoff?

seized123

I would like to put a manual shutoff valve at the outside aboveground oil tank, since currently there is no way to shut off the supply outside. Two different techs who came out said they could install a Firomatic to serve as manual shutoff, they seemed to balk at the idea of a ball valve. I don't know why, but I suspect it's because they're used to Firomatics and/or may not I have suitable ball valves in stock, and indeed I have not been able to find a flare x flare 3/8 inch ball valve except for "gas ball valves." (Can those be used for oil? So far one call to a manufacturer resulted in "I don't know I'll send the specs" but they didn't send the specs.)

Any downside to using the Firomatic as shutoff outside in the weather (protected by the tub cover though)?

Any reason a ball valve would be better? If so, can I use the "gas ball valves" for oil?

EBEBRATT-Ed

I would put both a firomatic and a ball valve Use IPS valves threaded for pipe. You can put flare x pipe adapter in where you need them. Look for a ball valve marked "WOG" they are very common WOG is water, oil or gas. Put in the two threaded valve with a threaded nipple between them and flare adapters on the ends if you need to

Jamie Hall

The Firomatic is a safety device, not a control valve. Don't mix them up.

EdTheHeaterMan

I have used firo-matic valves as the regular service valve for oil lines. A firo-matic valve will stop the flow of oil when you turn the handle and if the handle insert melts in a fire. I see no reason NOT to use that valve for a service valve.

The only problem I would have with using any valve at the top feed on an oil tank is the fact that many mechanics do not make acceptable flares on copper tubing. This will allow air into the fuel line at the top of the fuel line that will break the siphon and may cause nuisance flame-failure lock outs. If you are using a 2 pipe fuel line design or a tiger loop deaerator then that problem is eliminated. If you are using a single pipe fuel line depending on a leak free fuel line, then make sure the connections are air tight so no air leaks into the fuel line.

Mad Dog_2

W.O.G. rated I.P.S. Ball valve.  As a trained plumber, I always wanted a ball valve on each side of the oil filter for spill free servicing.  Oil company guys are trained to use ONLY exactly what you need for basic, safe operation...no fancy extra ANYTHING...especially a good ball valve! I asked Jimmy The Gent Burke (Not the Irish Mobster!) If it was against code or something 🤔..."No!!! But you DON'T need it, Matt!!"  It was beatin in to them oil guys...NO EXTRA ANYTHING!   So, I started installing them.  

Flares joints...
1) Gently ream the inside of the copper tubing.
***Slip flare nut on NOW!!!!
2) Leave about a Nickel's Thickness sticking out on the flare block.
3) Turn till you can't go no more
4) A touch of pipe dope on the flare Fitting threads (got yelled at for that too!).
5) Get a scissor ✂️ bite on flare fittings with box wrenches or my favorite Made in USA 🇺🇸 Crescent wrenches. 
6) Absolutely CRUSH the joint with all.your might...(Michael Pedicini told me that) .
If you didn't, you'd get a little weeping of oil.

That's how I do it...Never a weep or drop after that...Mad Dog 🐕 

seized123

Thanks for all the info. 

Mad Dog, re the flare, great instructions, but one question: you say to crush it, but what about all the stuff I see on the internet to never overtighten flare fittings cuz then they’ll leak? (I have a small drip in my return line at a flare, and before I read your post I’ve been too nervous to tighten it, afraid I’d make it worse.)

MikeAmann

One more time...... here is your ball valve: https://www.amazon.com/245SS-Forged-Valve-Standard-600WOG/dp/B07DVDZPL5/ref=asc_df_B07DVDZPL5/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241996632632&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12050999371120666264&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9061286&hvtargid=pla-493107455659&th=1



NIGO Industrial Co. 245SS Series Forged Brass Ball Valve, Standard Port, Rated to 600WOG (3/8 inch male flare x 3/8 inch male flare)
Standard port
CSA(AGA/CGA) certified
Blowout proof stem design
Rated to 600 PSI WOG

Product Description
Products Features

* CSA approved manually operated gas valve for use in house piping system, appliances, appliance connector valves and hose end valves

* All Nigo's products conform to specifications ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials) B124 and B16

* NPT threads on all Nigo's products meet ASME B1.20.1

* Designed for use in air, water, oil, nature, manufactured, mixed, liquefied petroleum or propane and LP Gas-Air

* Use with brass, steel, and iron pipe; Teflon tape and thread sealant are recommended for threaded joints

* Temperatures range from -40 to 125 F

* Max. Pressure: 600 PSI WOG

* Full port design

* Blowout proof stem

* Forged Brass Shut-off Valve with 3/8 Inch Male Flare x 3/8 Inch Male Flare

* DO NOT use pipe dope or tape on flare connection

EBEBRATT-Ed

if you have good flares there is no need to overtighten them or to use any dope

seized123

Thanks. Mike your link goes to a 1/2 inch valve and I need a 3/8, which is the problem: lots of 3/8 out there but mostly rated for gas it seems, not WOG. (The text under your link does say 3/8, but I can’t find that product.) Did find this though and it says WOG in the specs;

https://www.jmesales.com/jomar-valve-t-204-series-flare-x-flare-ball-valves-w-t-handle-600-psi-lifetime-warranty/

Jomar Valves, they say made in Italy.

The guy on Inspectapedia said he’d use the Firomatic outside rather than the ball valve, no idea why.

EdTheHeaterMan

I don't see anything wrong with this valve for shutting off fuel from the tank to the burner

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Firomatic-12840-FIROMATIC-3-8-ODF-Fusible-Inline-Valve-w-Flare-Nuts?_br_psugg_q=firomatic+valve they are easy to find.

If you can find the Jomar valve that will work too.

Robert O'Brien

You can use a ball valve at the tank on an outside tank, NFPA 31 requires a fire safety valve on the inside where fuel line enters building and at the burner

seized123

Thanks Robert, yeah, I’ve seen that NFPA requirement quoted and it confused me: for example, I currently I have only one Firomatic just before the filter, which makes sense to me since it also serves as a shutoff for repairs/filter change etc. But that’s technically not “at the burner.” It’s also not technically where the line enters the building (it’s a few feet away).

Are they really requiring two Firomatics? Without knowing anything I doubt that’s done much — or maybe it is, you guys would know — but I’m guessing it’s usually just a Firomatic before the filter. If two are really required inside I’ll get two inside, though it seems to push idea of the fewer fittings the better.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@seized123

two firomatics have always been required. 1 at the burner and one at the tank or if it has an outside tank the firomatic goes inside the building where the lines enter the building. If it is an above ground tank outside I would put a valve at the tank as well.

if you have the two required firomatics you can put as many additional firomatics or ball valves that you want

seized123

Okay EBEBRATT-Ed that clears that up, two it is.

I can’t help but note that in my current setup I have three strikes against me: 

— Only one inside Firomatic on the supply line, before the filter,
— Another Firomatic on the return line which is forbidden and is a hazard,
— No valves whatsoever outside.

I’m currently trying to find somebody to do a conversion to one pipe, and so I will ask for two Firomatics inside (as well as some kind of shutoff outside plus I want a Haseloh OSV anti-siphon valve at the tank recommended by PatN on another thread about anti-siphon valves). The more safety the better.

MikeAmann

seized123 said:

Thanks. Mike your link goes to a 1/2 inch valve and I need a 3/8, which is the problem: lots of 3/8 out there but mostly rated for gas it seems, not WOG.

You are right. Maybe I bought the last one in existence.