Can this blower motor be fixed?

JUGHNE

If you look at your 3rd picture you posted, you can see a wheel balancing weight.

It looks like a push on "Pal Nut". Don't move it, that is how little weight difference can throw a wheel out of balance. If out of balance it will wear out the motor bearings...existing or new. So your repair has to end up with a balanced wheel.

Your plan sounds like what my FIL used to do on the farm during the 1930's depression. When everyone had more time than money.

rsilvers

mattmia2 said:

I'm not seeing hundreds of watts in difference between motors but the way motors are rated is a bit dubious, it is sort of like we have these parts we use for many motors, let's test them under this very specific condition and publish a rating that doesn't reflect the real world conditions.

See the link I posted a few posts up. It is hundreds of watts. I changed all of my hydronic zone pumps to ECM and my pool pump. 

GGross

Check to see if there are any rebates available for changing to ECM. In Michigan we had them for at least a few years and while it was not a ton it definitely offset the cost difference if you were changing one out anyway

rsilvers

There are $100 rebates for ECM circulators here, but all of the local distributors charge $100 more for the pump than SupplyHouse.com, so I gave up on the rebates.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Forget the ECM motors they cost a fortune and you will never make the money back.

You need a motor and a blower wheel or a blower housing with the wheel and motor and probably a new capacitor.

rsilvers

The payback period is not that hard to calculate. The savings per year is:

((hours_per_day*watts)/1000)*dollars_per-kwh*365

For me, the motor is used for heat and AC. Let's say 5 hours a day average. For a 3/4 HP, about 250 watts savings. My cost per KwH is about 0.45.

That is $205 a year savings but the motor only costs $100 more. So for $100 more, it saves about $2000 over 10 years. That is an easy decision.

Let's say I am wrong and it only runs 2 hours a day. Then it is $82 a year savings. It will still pay for itself in the first 1.5 seasons and turn a profit after that.

SuperTech

One thing you might want to consider is how ECM motors are more prone to issues with restrictive ductwork and high static pressure. Has anyone else measured total external static pressure of your system?

HVACNUT

Does the new motor take the same frame?
Does a wiring harness and a relay board come with?
I see it's an R22 system. What brand and how old is the condenser? 

ChrisJ

SuperTech said:

One thing you might want to consider is how ECM motors are more prone to issues with restrictive ductwork and high static pressure. Has anyone else measured total external static pressure of your system?

I've heard this argument and I've seen it countered with another.

The ECM motor only does what it's designed to do. If they overheat or die early from doing exactly what they're designed / programmed to do, that's pretty sad and it's a badly designed part.

Whether or not the rumors are true I have no idea. There's plenty of badly designed parts out there.

@rsilvers You forgot to add that you're paying more to remove the extra heat from A/C that you paid to put there with the PSC motor. So it's actually costing even more than you calculated.

ratio

ChrisJ said:

SuperTech said:

One thing you might want to consider is how ECM motors are more prone to issues with restrictive ductwork and high static pressure. Has anyone else measured total external static pressure of your system?

I've heard this argument and I've seen it countered with another.

The ECM motor only does what it's designed to do. If they overheat or die early from doing exactly what they're designed / programmed to do, that's pretty sad and it's a badly designed part.

Whether or not the rumors are true I have no idea. There's plenty of badly designed parts out there.

@rsilvers You forgot to add that you're paying more to remove the extra heat from A/C that you paid to put there with the PSC motor. So it's actually costing even more than you calculated.

I think it's actually the case that most systems have overly restrictive ductwork & are operating outside mfgrs specs, which would indicate that PSC motors are more forgiving or at least conservatively rated.

That fits with other observations made regarding newer, high efficiency, products.

pecmsg

ChrisJ said:

SuperTech said:

One thing you might want to consider is how ECM motors are more prone to issues with restrictive ductwork and high static pressure. Has anyone else measured total external static pressure of your system?

I've heard this argument and I've seen it countered with another.

The ECM motor only does what it's designed to do. If they overheat or die early from doing exactly what they're designed / programmed to do, that's pretty sad and it's a badly designed part.

Whether or not the rumors are true I have no idea. There's plenty of badly designed parts out there.

@rsilvers You forgot to add that you're paying more to remove the extra heat from A/C that you paid to put there with the PSC motor. So it's actually costing even more than you calculated.

High static kills ECM motors.

ChrisJ

ratio said:

ChrisJ said:

SuperTech said:

One thing you might want to consider is how ECM motors are more prone to issues with restrictive ductwork and high static pressure. Has anyone else measured total external static pressure of your system?

I've heard this argument and I've seen it countered with another.

The ECM motor only does what it's designed to do. If they overheat or die early from doing exactly what they're designed / programmed to do, that's pretty sad and it's a badly designed part.

Whether or not the rumors are true I have no idea. There's plenty of badly designed parts out there.

@rsilvers You forgot to add that you're paying more to remove the extra heat from A/C that you paid to put there with the PSC motor. So it's actually costing even more than you calculated.

I think it's actually the case that most systems have overly restrictive ductwork & are operating outside mfgrs specs, which would indicate that PSC motors are more forgiving or at least conservatively rated.

That fits with other observations made regarding newer, high efficiency, products.

How can a motor which is designed to control it self possibly work outside of it's specifications?
There's literally a motor controller. It should be impossible to cause it to operate outside of it's specifications. If it somehow is running outside of it's ability, it's literally because it's own controller is forcing it to which seems absurd, doesn't it?

As far as I know, ESC stands for Electronic Speed Control. So, the motor is being controlled, it's not some erratic behavior. If high static kills them, it's a bad design.

A PSC cannot operate outside of it's specifications unless you physically stall it. If you restrict either side of a centrifugal blower it causes less load on the motor. This is why you hear it speed up.



If high static really does kill ESC blowers (and it very well might), we need to be complaining about it.

rsilvers

ECM, not ESC.

rsilvers

HVACNUT said:

Does the new motor take the same frame?
Does a wiring harness and a relay board come with?
I see it's an R22 system. What brand and how old is the condenser? 

Yes the motor has a 5.6" mount. The same.

RHEEM from 2005. Which is weird as the air handler is from 1999. Not sure why they would have changed the condenser after 6 years.

ChrisJ

rsilvers said:

ECM, not ESC.

You're right. That's a oops on my part.

It's electronically commutated motor in this case but it still uses a special controller and does exactly what the manufacturer programs it to do.

pecmsg

ChrisJ said:

ratio said:

ChrisJ said:

SuperTech said:

One thing you might want to consider is how ECM motors are more prone to issues with restrictive ductwork and high static pressure. Has anyone else measured total external static pressure of your system?

I've heard this argument and I've seen it countered with another.

The ECM motor only does what it's designed to do. If they overheat or die early from doing exactly what they're designed / programmed to do, that's pretty sad and it's a badly designed part.

Whether or not the rumors are true I have no idea. There's plenty of badly designed parts out there.

@rsilvers You forgot to add that you're paying more to remove the extra heat from A/C that you paid to put there with the PSC motor. So it's actually costing even more than you calculated.

I think it's actually the case that most systems have overly restrictive ductwork & are operating outside mfgrs specs, which would indicate that PSC motors are more forgiving or at least conservatively rated.

That fits with other observations made regarding newer, high efficiency, products.

How can a motor which is designed to control it self possibly work outside of it's specifications?
There's literally a motor controller. It should be impossible to cause it to operate outside of it's specifications. If it somehow is running outside of it's ability, it's literally because it's own controller is forcing it to which seems absurd, doesn't it?

As far as I know, ESC stands for Electronic Speed Control. So, the motor is being controlled, it's not some erratic behavior. If high static kills them, it's a bad design.

A PSC cannot operate outside of it's specifications unless you physically stall it. If you restrict either side of a centrifugal blower it causes less load on the motor. This is why you hear it speed up.



If high static really does kill ESC blowers (and it very well might), we need to be complaining about it.

Excessive surging!

Once the wheel cant overcome the static pressure it free spins for a sec than catches air again. the control notices this drop in amperage and tries and compensate than the as it grabs air the amperage increase and tries to compensate for that.

There's a listed range there designed for.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@rsilvers

ecm motors have a high failure rate

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

ChrisJ said:

ratio said:

ChrisJ said:

SuperTech said:

One thing you might want to consider is how ECM motors are more prone to issues with restrictive ductwork and high static pressure. Has anyone else measured total external static pressure of your system?

I've heard this argument and I've seen it countered with another.

The ECM motor only does what it's designed to do. If they overheat or die early from doing exactly what they're designed / programmed to do, that's pretty sad and it's a badly designed part.

Whether or not the rumors are true I have no idea. There's plenty of badly designed parts out there.

@rsilvers You forgot to add that you're paying more to remove the extra heat from A/C that you paid to put there with the PSC motor. So it's actually costing even more than you calculated.

I think it's actually the case that most systems have overly restrictive ductwork & are operating outside mfgrs specs, which would indicate that PSC motors are more forgiving or at least conservatively rated.

That fits with other observations made regarding newer, high efficiency, products.

How can a motor which is designed to control it self possibly work outside of it's specifications?
There's literally a motor controller. It should be impossible to cause it to operate outside of it's specifications. If it somehow is running outside of it's ability, it's literally because it's own controller is forcing it to which seems absurd, doesn't it?

As far as I know, ESC stands for Electronic Speed Control. So, the motor is being controlled, it's not some erratic behavior. If high static kills them, it's a bad design.

A PSC cannot operate outside of it's specifications unless you physically stall it. If you restrict either side of a centrifugal blower it causes less load on the motor. This is why you hear it speed up.



If high static really does kill ESC blowers (and it very well might), we need to be complaining about it.

Excessive surging!

Once the wheel cant overcome the static pressure it free spins for a sec than catches air again. the control notices this drop in amperage and tries and compensate than the as it grabs air the amperage increase and tries to compensate for that.

There's a listed range there designed for.

So you're saying they can't make a motor who's electronics protect both the motor and the control from failing?

I know you don't believe that.


I'm not saying they don't fail.
I'm saying it's unacceptable especially at the price they're sold for.

mattmia2

I'm sure there has been a long line of designs that shut down for benign things and got destroyed in the field since it was first deployed in the 70's. There is a balance between protecting the equipment and nuisance shut downs along with all sorts of unexpected field conditions the needed to be worked out to get to something reliable. They also need management that is interested in fixing those problems.

pecmsg

ChrisJ said:

One thing you might want to consider is how ECM motors are more prone to issues with restrictive ductwork and high static pressure. Has anyone else measured total external static pressure of your system?

I've heard this argument and I've seen it countered with another. The ECM motor only does what it's designed to do. If they overheat or die early from doing exactly what they're designed / programmed to do, that's pretty sad and it's a badly designed part. Whether or not the rumors are true I have no idea. There's plenty of badly designed parts out there. @rsilvers You forgot to add that you're paying more to remove the extra heat from A/C that you paid to put there with the PSC motor. So it's actually costing even more than you calculated.

I think it's actually the case that most systems have overly restrictive ductwork & are operating outside mfgrs specs, which would indicate that PSC motors are more forgiving or at least conservatively rated.

That fits with other observations made regarding newer, high efficiency, products.

How can a motor which is designed to control it self possibly work outside of it's specifications? There's literally a motor controller. It should be impossible to cause it to operate outside of it's specifications. If it somehow is running outside of it's ability, it's literally because it's own controller is forcing it to which seems absurd, doesn't it? As far as I know, ESC stands for Electronic Speed Control. So, the motor is being controlled, it's not some erratic behavior. If high static kills them, it's a bad design. A PSC cannot operate outside of it's specifications unless you physically stall it. If you restrict either side of a centrifugal blower it causes less load on the motor. This is why you hear it speed up. If high static really does kill ESC blowers (and it very well might), we need to be complaining about it.

Excessive surging! Once the wheel cant overcome the static pressure it free spins for a sec than catches air again. the control notices this drop in amperage and tries and compensate than the as it grabs air the amperage increase and tries to compensate for that. There's a listed range there designed for.

So you're saying they can't make a motor whose electronics protect both the motor and the control from failing? I know you don't believe that. I'm not saying they don't fail. I'm saying it's unacceptable especially at the price they're sold for.

Sure they can

do you want to pay for it?

do you want an heater that’s troublefree for 30’years? Breakout the check book

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

ChrisJ said:

One thing you might want to consider is how ECM motors are more prone to issues with restrictive ductwork and high static pressure. Has anyone else measured total external static pressure of your system?

I've heard this argument and I've seen it countered with another. The ECM motor only does what it's designed to do. If they overheat or die early from doing exactly what they're designed / programmed to do, that's pretty sad and it's a badly designed part. Whether or not the rumors are true I have no idea. There's plenty of badly designed parts out there. @rsilvers You forgot to add that you're paying more to remove the extra heat from A/C that you paid to put there with the PSC motor. So it's actually costing even more than you calculated.

I think it's actually the case that most systems have overly restrictive ductwork & are operating outside mfgrs specs, which would indicate that PSC motors are more forgiving or at least conservatively rated.

That fits with other observations made regarding newer, high efficiency, products.

How can a motor which is designed to control it self possibly work outside of it's specifications? There's literally a motor controller. It should be impossible to cause it to operate outside of it's specifications. If it somehow is running outside of it's ability, it's literally because it's own controller is forcing it to which seems absurd, doesn't it? As far as I know, ESC stands for Electronic Speed Control. So, the motor is being controlled, it's not some erratic behavior. If high static kills them, it's a bad design. A PSC cannot operate outside of it's specifications unless you physically stall it. If you restrict either side of a centrifugal blower it causes less load on the motor. This is why you hear it speed up. If high static really does kill ESC blowers (and it very well might), we need to be complaining about it.

Excessive surging! Once the wheel cant overcome the static pressure it free spins for a sec than catches air again. the control notices this drop in amperage and tries and compensate than the as it grabs air the amperage increase and tries to compensate for that. There's a listed range there designed for.

So you're saying they can't make a motor whose electronics protect both the motor and the control from failing? I know you don't believe that. I'm not saying they don't fail. I'm saying it's unacceptable especially at the price they're sold for.

Sure they can

do you want to pay for it?

do you want an heater that’s troublefree for 30’years? Breakout the check book

Can this quoted reply get any longer?  

ratio

ChrisJ said:

pecmsg said:

ChrisJ said:

pecmsg said:

ChrisJ said:

ratio said:

ChrisJ said:

SuperTech said:

One thing you might want to consider is how ECM motors are more prone to issues with restrictive ductwork and high static pressure. Has anyone else measured total external static pressure of your system?

I've heard this argument and I've seen it countered with another.

The ECM motor only does what it's designed to do. If they overheat or die early from doing exactly what they're designed / programmed to do, that's pretty sad and it's a badly designed part.

Whether or not the rumors are true I have no idea. There's plenty of badly designed parts out there.

@rsilvers You forgot to add that you're paying more to remove the extra heat from A/C that you paid to put there with the PSC motor. So it's actually costing even more than you calculated.

I think it's actually the case that most systems have overly restrictive ductwork & are operating outside mfgrs specs, which would indicate that PSC motors are more forgiving or at least conservatively rated.

That fits with other observations made regarding newer, high efficiency, products.

How can a motor which is designed to control it self possibly work outside of it's specifications?
There's literally a motor controller. It should be impossible to cause it to operate outside of it's specifications. If it somehow is running outside of it's ability, it's literally because it's own controller is forcing it to which seems absurd, doesn't it?

As far as I know, ESC stands for Electronic Speed Control. So, the motor is being controlled, it's not some erratic behavior. If high static kills them, it's a bad design.

A PSC cannot operate outside of it's specifications unless you physically stall it. If you restrict either side of a centrifugal blower it causes less load on the motor. This is why you hear it speed up.



If high static really does kill ESC blowers (and it very well might), we need to be complaining about it.

Excessive surging!

Once the wheel cant overcome the static pressure it free spins for a sec than catches air again. the control notices this drop in amperage and tries and compensate than the as it grabs air the amperage increase and tries to compensate for that.

There's a listed range there designed for.

So you're saying they can't make a motor whose electronics protect both the motor and the control from failing?

I know you don't believe that.


I'm not saying they don't fail.
I'm saying it's unacceptable especially at the price they're sold for.

Sure they can

do you want to pay for it?

do you want an heater that’s troublefree for 30’years? Breakout the check book

Can this quoted reply get any longer?  

It would seem no?

unclejohn

Order a blower wheel and fan motor from First Co. and be done with it. 

rsilvers

I have the parts now to fix it but holding off because the $1200 per ton rebate for a heat pump is tempting. Exploring those options.

rsilvers

I installed the ECM motor and it is working. Ended up with a Mars blower wheel that is identical in specs to the original. Strangely the only place in the country that had a wheel that would fit this, at least as far as I could find with web searches, was my local distributor.