Crossover Trap

BMurrins

Hello everyone!

I just came across a crossover trap well hidden in a very dark corner of one of our pre war buildings. Just wanted to see if anyone here would be able to identify it. 

Steamhead

This is a Vapor steam system. Illinois Engineering was one of many makers of Vapor equipment back in the day.

The model number should be on the side of the trap body.

Is this the only crossover in the system?

BMurrins

Steamhead said:

This is a Vapor steam system. Illinois Engineering was one of many makers of Vapor equipment back in the day. The model number should be on the side of the trap body. Is this the only crossover in the system?

This is one of 12 in the building. There are 6 apartments per floor (4 floors total). 2 crossover traps per stack of apartments. One at the end of each main. 

Steamhead

OK- when you find the model number, post it.

However- it may be better to upgrade these traps. They have the job of venting the air from the steam mains, and the faster you vent them, the less the boiler has to run to heat the building.

Measure the length and diameter of each steam main, and we should be able to guide you on this.

Here is the most extreme crossover trap job we've done:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/142217/the-king-of-all-crossover-traps

Where is this building located?

BMurrins

Thanks your guidance would be much appreciated. When I get a chance to head back to the building I’ll be sure to get those measurements and as many pictures as possible. It’s located in Montclair, NJ

I had a horrible time trying to heat 2 parts of the building last winter. I was stumped because a brand new WM 788 was installed a few months before the heating season but after recently learning about vapor systems, it immediately started to make sense. 

Almost all of them are painted over, old, some are backwards, one was removed and has the end of main piped right to the dry return with copper. 

This system has been seriously neglected for what seems like decades.

Steamhead

North Joisey, eh?

That system will likely need some specialized help. You have some good Steam Men in your area. Get in touch with @EzzyT , @JohnNY or @clammy . They're as good as it gets.

JohnNY

BMurrins said:

It’s located in Montclair, NJ

This system has been seriously neglected for what seems like decades.

Some of the best examples of beautifully designed and installed and yet tragically neglected and mishandled steam systems I’ve ever seen are in Montclair, NJ. 

jumper

JohnNY said:

BMurrins said:

It’s located in Montclair, NJ

This system has been seriously neglected for what seems like decades.

Some of the best examples of beautifully designed and installed and yet tragically neglected and mishandled steam systems I’ve ever seen are in Montclair, NJ. 
Neglect and mutilation are not the same.

BMurrins

@JohnNY I've toured a few pre war buildings in Montclair and some of the systems have been completely mangled. If you've serviced any of the buildings in lower Montclair then you'll know that I'm not exaggerating when I say that they've been mangled.

@Steamhead I couldnt find the model number anywhere on that trap. There is one right next to it venting two lobby radiators and I couldnt find it on that trap either.

I tried doing some research and all I could find was an ad from the early 20th century. I've attached the picture down below.

As for the mains, theres an 6" header supplying two trunks. One is 6" and the other is 4". Each branch main is 70 ft long and progressively reduces after each riser ultimately terminating with 2".

The dry returns ultimately meet at a 2" F&T trap dumping into a condensate pump. I suspect that the only reason a condensate pump is in this system is because of an underground leak in one of the wet returns that the previous super eventually told me was discovered in the 90's but never fixed. I dug it up and replaced it in December. Attached below is a picture of the rotted return.

As for the crossover traps, most are original and undoubtably not working . The only "upgraded" ones are 2 old Illinois 1g traps (one is backwards), and one new Hoffman 17c thats open to the atmosphere (this vents the main in the corner of the building I have trouble getting heat to) so I assume its too small for the venting requirements of that main which tees off to 3" from the 4" trunk.

What are everyones thoughts on appropriate crossover traps to replace all of them with? I'd also like to hear thoughts on the potentially unnecessary condensate pump. Lastly (for now), would anyone object to replacing that pressuretrol with a vaporstat?

Steamhead

@BMurrins , I'd start by replacing each crossover trap with a Barnes & Jones 1/2" crossover trap. This trap probably has up to twice the throughput of the Illinois traps, and makes that Hoffman #17C look like a toy. You'll need to do some repiping since the B&J crossovers are not "outboard" traps like the Illinois ones.

Also, make sure no steam is getting into the dry returns. If it is, fix the bad traps- Tunstall and Barnes & Jones make repair kits. Then get rid of that master trap at the condensate tank.

Then watch how much better it works.

BMurrins

That sounds great thank you @Steamhead ! Let me ask you though, do you think that condensate pump is worth keeping vs installing a vent after the dry returns? I've already had to replace the float switch on it so my thought process is if its unnecessary, why spend more money repairing it down the line?

I could always pipe a bypass which wouldnt be time consuming since I'll have my threader on site while repiping for the dry return traps and if the water level drops too low i could always close it. Let me know what you think

Jamie Hall

@Steamhead is the expert -- but I'll chime in with a couple of thoughts. First, if the dry returns aren't properly vented -- which means in your case probably a few Gorton #2s at least -- they need to be. They can all be clustered where the dry returns come together before they drop to a wet return (or in your case, the condensate tank?) but they need to be there. There shouldn't be any other vents to the atmosphere anywhere else on the system (if there are, repipe them into a dry return through a crossover trap).

Second, unless you have serious problems with having to lift condensate, the odds are that you don't need the condensate tank at all. Just a headache. That said, however, newer boilers don't have the volume of old ones, and it is possible that the returns aren't fast enough to avoid low water problems. The solution to that isn't a condensate tank, however; it's a reservoir crossing the boiler water level and equalized to the steam main to provide the additional volume.

Third, I have no doubt at all that adding a vpourstat will be helpful (keep the pressuretrol as a safety). Try setting it at first at 8 ounces cutout first, with a 4 ounce differential.

And follow @Steamhead 's comments!

BMurrins

Jamie Hall said:

@Steamhead is the expert -- but I'll chime in with a couple of thoughts. First, if the dry returns aren't properly vented -- which means in your case probably a few Gorton #2s at least -- they need to be. They can all be clustered where the dry returns come together before they drop to a wet return (or in your case, the condensate tank?) but they need to be there. There shouldn't be any other vents to the atmosphere anywhere else on the system (if there are, repipe them into a dry return through a crossover trap). Second, unless you have serious problems with having to lift condensate, the odds are that you don't need the condensate tank at all. Just a headache. That said, however, newer boilers don't have the volume of old ones, and it is possible that the returns aren't fast enough to avoid low water problems. The solution to that isn't a condensate tank, however; it's a reservoir crossing the boiler water level and equalized to the steam main to provide the additional volume. Third, I have no doubt at all that adding a vpourstat will be helpful (keep the pressuretrol as a safety). Try setting it at first at 8 ounces cutout first, with a 4 ounce differential. And follow @Steamhead 's comments!

Thanks Jamie. I was thinking of gorton #2s as well but how many for a system of this size? Im looking forward to the vaporstat. I’ll be sure to start at 8 oz.

Steamhead

BMurrins said:

That sounds great thank you @Steamhead ! Let me ask you though, do you think that condensate pump is worth keeping vs installing a vent after the dry returns? I've already had to replace the float switch on it so my thought process is if its unnecessary, why spend more money repairing it down the line?

I could always pipe a bypass which wouldnt be time consuming since I'll have my threader on site while repiping for the dry return traps and if the water level drops too low i could always close it. Let me know what you think

One thing at a time. Do the crossovers and any bad radiator traps and lose the master trap first. See how it works, then look at getting rid of the pump and tank.

And if you need help, don't hesitate to get in touch with the Steam Guys I mentioned.

jumper

Jamie Hall said:

@Steamhead is the expert --
Second, unless you have serious problems with having to lift condensate, the odds are that you don't need the condensate tank at all. Just a headache. That said, however, newer boilers don't have the volume of old ones, and it is possible that the returns aren't fast enough to avoid low water problems. The solution to that isn't a condensate tank, however; it's a reservoir crossing the boiler water level and equalized to the steam main to provide the additional volume.

Can you elaborate on the differences between reservoir and condensate tank? I agree that

equalized

is better than venting.

Jamie Hall

The key point to a reservoir tank is that the water level in the tank is about in the middle of the tank -- it's not full -- and equal to the water level in the boiler. It's directly connected to the boiler both below the water line and in the "air" space above the water line --not through the Hartford Loop -- and thus the water level can drop or rise with the boiler. Effectively giving the boiler a whole lot more water volume to play with, with no controls of any kind needed.

Handy if you have a nice new small boiler and long or slow returns.

BMurrins

Steamhead said:

That sounds great thank you @Steamhead ! Let me ask you though, do you think that condensate pump is worth keeping vs installing a vent after the dry returns? I've already had to replace the float switch on it so my thought process is if its unnecessary, why spend more money repairing it down the line? I could always pipe a bypass which wouldnt be time consuming since I'll have my threader on site while repiping for the dry return traps and if the water level drops too low i could always close it. Let me know what you think

One thing at a time. Do the crossovers and any bad radiator traps and lose the master trap first. See how it works, then look at getting rid of the pump and tank. And if you need help, don't hesitate to get in touch with the Steam Guys I mentioned.

Thanks! I appreciate your help. 

Are you by any chance ‘Silent Steam Team’ on YouTube? If so, I think your channel is awesome and I’ve learned a lot from you.

Steamhead

BMurrins said:

Thanks! I appreciate your help. 

Are you by any chance ‘Silent Steam Team’ on YouTube? If so, I think your channel is awesome and I’ve learned a lot from you.

My partner @Gordo runs that channel. You rarely see me in those videos, don't want the camera to break.

BMurrins

Hey all. I'm having trouble figuring out how to repipe the last crossover trap. Dry return is in the ceiling and it'd be very difficult to work up there. Any ideas on how to pipe this without overcomplicating things?

New England SteamWorks

What are we re-piping it?