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Young People - The Smart Phone Generation

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WMno57
WMno57 Member Posts: 1,408
edited June 2023 in THE MAIN WALL
How do existing small businesses hire and train young employees today? How do those small businesses market their services to young customers?
This purpose of this new discussion is to continue the topic that came up in this thread:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/192624/how-bad-is-it-gas-steam-boiler-piping/
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Comments

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,166
    edited June 2023
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    JakeCK said:

    They'd bring the temp up to 120f? O.O


    You learn something everyday.
    I heard that in the 1970s from a instructor at some school or class I took. It was said that the phrase "You got to sweat for your money" was a result of that procedure. Although you don't hear that phrase quoted anymore because all the millennials work in front of flat screens in an air conditioned office these days.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,915
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    ,@EdTheHeaterMan since the youngest millennials are 27 years old now and the oldest are 42, maybe it's time to pick on another generation.


    No, I'm not a millennial, I'm gen X.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    hot_rod
  • reggi
    reggi Member Posts: 522
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    cwaz said:
    Ok, so the prodigal son has returned and has already disassembled all of their near boiler piping, gas supply piping and the MC drop. He wouldn’t go as far as to apologize, but he acknowledged it was not set up as per manufacturers specs.  He is set to return Wednesday to repipe in all cast iron.  

    I do believe in second chances so let’s see how this plays out.  Luckily I have only paid him the cost of the boiler, which I found a fair request, and it is the middle of summer, so I have time on my side.
    All I wonder is if 30 years ago he took pride in his work and what happened along the way that "good enough" became his new standard... Lack of competition? Nobody else in his area was using the Mfgs Install recommendations ? it became easier to blame the new boilers not being as good as the old ones ?... And I wonder how many repeat customers he has.. or how many got rid of their steam over the years because of a bad installation....
    Just thinking out loud.... If you're keeping him keep updating because he owes you "Perfection" JMHO 
    One way to get familiar something you know nothing about is to ask a really smart person a really stupid question
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,416
    edited June 2023
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    They'd bring the temp up to 120f? O.O

    You learn something everyday.
    I heard that in the 1970s from a instructor at some school or class I took. It was said that the phrase "You got to sweat for your money" was a result of that procedure. Although you don't hear that phrase quoted anymore because all the millennials work in front of flat screens in an air conditioned office these days.
    Excuse me, firmly in the millennial generation here and I work in a machine shop, not an office. While we do have AC I was told some years ago it is just as much for the machines, material, and the gauges as it was for the people. Something about increasing productivity of the machines, controlling humidity for the metals that can rust, and keeping tolerances in check on the gauges. In fact, we're not allowed to open the dock doors to cool the building down because of the concern for bringing in excess humidity.

    And while I do use a "flat screen" everyday at work, it is how we manage inventory or shop orders. And we do use a good number of flat screens. At least one for every work center. Funny factoid, we still had a lot of CRT's up until a few years ago because they held up better in the oily environment.
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,792
    edited June 2023
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    I just can't think of any reasons why young people would avoid the construction/mechanicals trades...must be something wrong with them

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,949
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    I just can't think of any reasons why young people would avoid the construction/mechanicals trades...must be something wrong with them

    I will never work from 4 am to 2 pm. The fact that the sun isn't up is a hint that you should be sleeping.
  • Dan_NJ
    Dan_NJ Member Posts: 247
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    I just can't think of any reasons why young people would avoid the construction/mechanicals trades...must be something wrong with them

    Bearing witness to an economic boom & bust cycle maybe? One former home builder I know was basically put out of business along with his crew, around 2008-2009. More or less overnight there was no new business to take on. He moved on to a different line of work and never went back. Can't blame him after having the rug pulled out from under him once.

    Mad Dog_2
  • Waher
    Waher Member Posts: 257
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    I just can't think of any reasons why young people would avoid the construction/mechanicals trades...must be something wrong with them

    Social stigma, risk of injury/cancers, lack of trade schools/summer jobs/learning from parents about trades that would interest them.

    Middle and High Schools don't focus on any kind of exploration of trade work, they push everyone to aim toward going to college.

    Vocational education used to be a larger part of public education and it fell by the wayside thanks to Department of Education policy sine its inception and general push by Congress during the Cold War to push everyone towards college thinking that it would increase the number of scientists & engineers without at thought that doing so could compromise the industrial/skilled trade base.

    Employers also used to be able to test applicants for technical skills and do more in-company training for various skills similar to the military. Then there were multiple court rulings challenging these tests and in-company credentials, which lead to the gate keeping and credentialism being outsourced to universities or third party trade/occupational associations with a vested financial interest in shrinking the labor pool.
    Mad Dog_2MikeAmann
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
    edited June 2023
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    The 2008-2010 Depression forced me out of a Otherwise very successful 12 year run in FULL TIME Plumbing & Heating Contracting business.  With 3 kids in Catholic School, a $4800.00 per month mortgage and all the other bills, There was not enough work coming in..it literally STOPPED....and this was after letting 5 guys and an office manager go.  I had a 40 Thousand Dollar Supply house bill to pay...took me 2.5 yrs to pay that off!!   Back to The "Onion" worked less hours, benefits paid, paid holidays...It was one of the worst hurts in my life going back to work for someone. 

     I'd say, starting in the 1970s, Guidance counselors and "they" started to push college on EVERYONE....Some even ridiculed the trades.  My well meaning guidance counselor was appaled that I wasn't going to college: "What???? You HAVE to go to college,  Matt!!!".  My HS Football Coach, whom I was extremely loyal to and was  his enforcer as Team Captain, never talked to me in the hallway after the last game of Sr year because I wasn't going to college.. I heard from underclassmen The following year, that He disparaged me because I skipped College, & College Football Career and Became a plumber:  "You don't wanna end up like Matt Sweeney...do ya??"  He would never dare say this to my face.  Side note: This 'Winner' of a coach got fired from every school he coached at every few years, coached at like 10 diffent schools...knew football, but made enemies where ever he went, never married, no kids,, never moved out of the house he grew up in...I think I  did a lot better than you, COACH!!!!  I DID wound up going TO college, playing Rugby 🏉 and hitting honor roll every semester..I did this .After my 4 Yr Plumbing Apprentice was completed, but I really wanted it now. 

    NYC had a Legendary Vocational HS in Queens called "Edison" For close to 100 years, they had the best basic Trade education one could get. All trades were thoroughly taught from shop class to theory.  All the instructors were Licensed Master Plumbers and Electricians, et al.  I knew many plumbers who came through Edison HS and with 3 years work experience after graduation,,  could pass the very difficult NYC LMP exam on the first shot.  An Edison Graduate was as good as a Yale Graduate Student in our City.  Sometime in the 1980s, they discontinued the Plumbing program...just like that!  Computers 🖥 were more important they said.  I heard now...decades later, they realize it was a huge mistake and want to start it up.  

    Being a plumber and Heating/boiler guy is rough, brutal work.. its definitely not for everyone.  Of the 30 or so kids, I have gotten entry level jobs over the last 38 years, only 2 have made careers out of it.  Some lasted 2 hours, 2 days, two weeks...Some a few months....Gone...College was much easier than this!!! Ha ha 😂 

    On a daily basis, we deal with disease laden  raw sewage and waste water, multiple chemicals, including acids, VOCs, Fumes, asbestos, lead, mercury, Chlordane, dust, ALL weather extremes..Very heavy, unwieldy, cumbersome and dangerous lifting, rats 🐀,  mice, roaches, maggots, sewer flies, Tubliflex (black sewer worms) worms, Blood Born pathogens, great heights, trench work.  Very dangerous power tools that WILL hurt you if you don't maintain a death-grip on them (Remember G.I.Joe with Kung Fu Grip??) and hold on for dear life...My Father in law calls tools like these  "The Widowmaker."   A Milwaukee Hole Hawg Right angle drill with a 4 1/2" Self Feeding wood bit on it (if it hits a nail..it taka you jaw off...seen guys get busted eye sockets, cheek bones, noses, and knockout and thrown off ladders),  Cast Iron Ratchet cutters, Partner saws, grinders that can split apart the blades and lodge in your face, or take an eye out. Seen both...several times.  I saw My partner get his hands twisted up in a Large Electric Eel sewer cable and nearly lost his hand. .it took us a full 5 minutes to back off the Helixed cable with large pipe wrenches, with his screaming and bleeding 😳 the whole time....Little stressful? Yep...You have to be extremely tough and rugged.  Size doesn't really mean much..I' ll take a small, pit bull tough 150 lb  plumber over  260lb meat head bodybuilder taking boiler sections down stairs or out.  
    I have also found that about 60% just do it because the $$ can be good, 35% actually like it, less than 5% really love it and get in to it like those here.  We are a rare breed.  

    For me, the harder something is to do, the more I want to conquer and Master it.  Most people prefer easier ways of doing things...thats cool...to each his own.  Mad Dog 🐕 
    EdTheHeaterManMikeAmann
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,792
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    And maybe putting down whole generations of people who make up the pool from which you need to recruit might have some involvement is what I meant

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Solid_Fuel_ManGordo
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,166
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    Oops, I touched a nerve here. I was just listening to conservative talk radio prior to my previous comment. I will endevour to be more understanding.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    Mad Dog_2
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,792
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    It has nothing to do with touching a nerve or conservative radio. I’m old and not sensitive.

    but I see people concerned here about the difficulty in hiring new people, then I see huge chunks of the population get disparaged.

    you don’t think these people can sense your disdain when they come across it? Do you like working for someone who prejudges you to be lazy, weak or unwilling? 

    It’s no difference to me, but it boggles my mind. Sorry for the hijack

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    JakeCKMad Dog_2Larry WeingartenGordo
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,416
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    Or has had their inability to buy a house and start a family blamed on their love of avocado toast🥑 and Starbucks.  Personally I do not know anyone my age who has a love of avocado toast, that said I knew not to even approach my mother until after she had her coffee and she's a boomer. 
    Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    That wasnt MY Comment disparaging them, but there is clearly a HUGE chasm in America 🇺🇸 on this issue...and he's got a strong point ..just went about it a little harsh.   My recent trip to Taco had guys from Across America in it.  We spent two great days together learning, bonding, sharing War Stories...talking shop California,  Colorado, Midwest, Mass, R.I., NY...We're all at a loss for how we are going to staff the future of our trades. You don't have to be a Neanderthal,  You can't be Soft  in these trades....Too many softies these days.  We didn't win Two World Wars with Soft men & women.... Mad Dog 🐕 
    realliveplumberMikeAmann
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,915
    edited June 2023
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    For what it's worth I've seen people in multiple movies and tv shows from the 1940s,50s,60s and even 70s talk about how "kids these days are lazy and just don't care". This includes British shows. I'm 90% sure I've heard it on Dragnet and Barney Miller as well.

    I came to the conclusion this is how it's always been and people that think their generation was better at anything, are wrong.

    Not to mention, "Take a shower you dirty hippie" or, "Get a job hippie" wasn't created for Millennials.


    Hey look, a 1950s "damn Millennial".....Back then they were called Beatniks, but same thing, lazy kids..



    For those that don't know, that's Maynard G Krebs played by Bob Denver aka Gilligan.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Mad Dog_2
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,408
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    To continue helping @cwaz get his steam boiler piped correctly, could we move the Millennial talk to a new Discussion? I have started one here:
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/192709/young-people-the-smart-phone-generation/
    @Erin Holohan Haskell I know you can combine discussions. Is it possible to split a discussion? All the posts after the OPs last post might better fit in the new discussion.
  • Dave Carpentier
    Dave Carpentier Member Posts: 604
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    Well, I have a 20 yo that pretty much self-started. He's not afraid of dirty/hard, worked part time during high school at various jobs, then after HS full time doing well at a large lumber sawmill (started out dirty grunt, making his way thru operator positions now (3rd machine signoff soon). Also on H&S and Union rep. No worries there. I always reminded him to get multiple skillsets with machinery and he should be okay. He's pretty good with auto repair too, so that might be a fallback.

    My 16 yo ? Well, lets just say that I think I have one on each side of the issue.

    Same school system, same parents, etc. Everyone is different I guess.

    30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
    Currently in building maintenance.
    Mad Dog_2Solid_Fuel_Man
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,408
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    Waher said:

    Employers also used to be able to test applicants for technical skills and do more in-company training for various skills similar to the military. Then there were multiple court rulings challenging these tests and in-company credentials, which lead to the gate keeping and credentialism being outsourced to universities or third party trade/occupational associations with a vested financial interest in shrinking the labor pool.

    This Supreme Court case from 1967 established that employers may NOT give a general IQ test, but they can test for specific job related skills.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.
    In the 1990's Microsoft got around this by asking IQ test type questions in the job interview to asses the candidate's intelligence.
    Employers sometimes look at what school someone went to, to assess intelligence. If they went to CalTech, or MIT they must be smart right? Gate keeping and credential-ism. In the Trades some employers like to hire Vets. Military means they have been trained for teamwork.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,006
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    Our company decided to stay small, and has thus avoided the hiring nightmare.

    But I hear from other companies we work with (chimney contractor, oil tank removal, radiator stripping and refinishing) that they'll hire someone and after a few days they stop showing up for work. Doesn't seem worth the effort.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Mad Dog_2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,915
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    What exactly is "The Smart Phone Generation" ?

    My 73 year old father uses a smart phone.........I've known quite a few boomers that use them.
    So does most of Gen X. Millennials, Gen Z, Gen Alpha....


    I'm really confused honestly.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
    edited June 2023
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    General Georgie Patton would whip Gilligan in a wrastlin' or boxing match..no ?  Yes, there is always generational pride that is used for bragging rights and then there is also the truth and keeping it real, Chris.  I have had the unique first hand experience of coming in to the working world around 9 yrs old (summers and weekends at the Racetrack and Horse Farm, construction projects with my Pop).  I was trained, schooled and broken in by men that fought for their lives, many times, hand to hand with Bayonets and K-Bars in Europe and The South Pacific. Pete Russo survived for weeks after the Battle of the Bulge on Dead Nazis chocolate 🍫 bars when he got separated from his Army unit...They prevailed through the Great Depression, Mulitple wars, hard times.  They were WW II, Korean War and Vets of The 'Nam.  They were rough and hard, but good, honest and caring men who loved their fambly and Country.... Being their Apprentice wasn't too different from what you see in Full Metal Jacket.  Were some of them verbally and physically abusive... a few...it made you work harder to be tougher ..to gain their respect.  But if you earned their respect as a hard worker , and you got in there, got down!  They treated you like their son.  Way too many of this younger generation, the very few that actually try our trade..
    1) Don't 'DO'  overtime OR weekends! 
    2) They don't "like" dealing with stoppages or poo ...(oh ..I yeah...I love it!) ..
    3) They 'always "need" help on one man jobs.. 
    4) Dont read or try to advance their knowledge.
    5) Don't do small side jobs which helps you. Puts u ahead of your competition plus gives you valuable people skills that will help them if they ever make foreman or own a shop.  

    I had this nice enough young man, about 10 yrs ago, that lasted 3 hours on the Construction site.  He came back to the Shop all shaken up.  I thought something really bad happened.  He was a tall, broad shouldered lad in VG shape, Long, Fluffy Rock Star Hair, Nice looking lad.  He had a Cut off Denim Vest (cool), multiple earrings and nose rings...(still cool just not for me! )
    Black Leather Gloves with all the fingers cut off..Michael Jackson Style...(Hmmmm)..He was all ready for a Motley Crue show but not the plumbing world... He had to go up on a lift with his mechanic..15 feet up (no biggie...(We used to use fold out Ladders at that height and higher BEFORE lifts were on job cites..no harnesses)...full rails around it...OSHA harness...All he had to do was pass the hand tools...He freaked..."Bro...I'm sorry man..I can't do this...I can't go back there!!'
    I felt very bad for him and calmed him down...(They Called me The Social worker my whole life) Turned out he was one of the Bosses' Buddy's Wayward 20 yr old sons that he was trying to teach to "man up."  
    After I told him it was ok..it's not for everyone kid, we talked a little.  Typical, Modern, Suburban kid, never mowed the lawn, raked leaves and bagged them..
     Held a ladder for dad to clean the gutters, 
    Demo'ed a Wall with a sledge hammer, moved heavy furniture up two flights of stairs..Didnt know the difference between a Philios head and a Slot...never used one!! .Nope....spent his youth playing video games in the basement. These kids' parents regret the way they raised them now....They spill their guts all the time..  It's never too late to change or learn a trade but most of these kids, expect US to Conform 100% to THEIR ways...Il'l hear anyone out and Will gladly a adopt a better or safer way to do or install something,  but there is GOOD reason and precedent behind the industry standards and traditions we proudly  uphold.  We represent thousands of years of plumbari and hydronicum back to Ancient Mesopotamia and the first crude plumbing systems...to The reknowned, Centuries-Old Institution of Higher Learning The General Society of New York The Mechanic's Institute, which has carried The Torth. Humility, going with the Flow and the adage "When in Rome, do as the Roman's do" is a wise and sagacious advice to follow when you enter ANY established working operation..whether its a plumbing shop, a Law Firm or an Italian restaurant...When you've paid your dues, been around a number of years, and you want to tweak or change things up, God Bless Ya, but don't be so cocksure that you know better and have all the answers and want to custom tailor a long established trade to suit YOUR likes and dislikes...They call that Hubris.....Peace out.  Mad Dog 🐕 
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,792
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    Your boss didn’t raise his kid right therefore whole generations should be judged, got it

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Mad Dog_2Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
    edited June 2023
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    I'm not confused in the least. In general, the vast majority of Americans over 70 are NOT The "Smart Phone" Generation. My father in law is 78...and typical of his age group.  Will NOT give up his flip phone, even hates them and has trouble using it. Will NOT do email or go on a computer.  This is an educated Man with a Degree in Chemistry ⚗ who never hired ANYONE for his house or cars...US Navy Vietnam Era...He also ran Water Bureau for our County's (Most populous in the Nation). Health Dept . He hates when people text in front of him, thinks its rude, Hates Call waiting (also rude).  Never late,, always early...Most of his friends, are more or less like him.  He ain't learning nothing new he says!  Ha ha 😂. 
    Below 70 it gets better...50-60ish folks (Me)..even trades guys all have a smart phone since 'crackberrys" came out. We email, surf the web, Play with Tekmars .  Were all DECENT with technology, some excellent.  50 down to 2 yr olds are The Smart Phone Generation to me...They were spoonfed computers and Technology from the Womb. I graduated HS in 1985.  There were exactly 5 "computer nerds 🤓 " In the whole school.  They had a small club.  We all leaned on THEM for tech advice et cetera and a few of us kept them safe from The Bullys..Jim K went to MIT, Tom C got a PhD in Computer science from Harvard.  In That HS today, I bet 99% of the students could run circles around me on the Smart Phone... Two more comments.  I think the Smart Phone (pocket computer) email and YouTube are the Greatest inventions of the last Millennium!  Last, We ALL (ME INCLUDED) need to put the phone down once in awhile and get some work done!! Many of the Smart Phone Gen...think nothing of texting their girlfriends, wife, buddies RIGHT IN FRONT of the Boss while he's trying to explain something to them!! Helllooooo
    Mad Dog 🐕 



  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,408
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    ChrisJ said:

    What exactly is "The Smart Phone Generation" ?

    I used that term as a catch all for those who have grown up with information at their fingertips. They use smart phones effectively as a tool to do all kinds of tasks more efficiently than my generation learned how to do things.
    I'm not as old as your father, but I don't like to use my smart phone as much as younger people do. To see the screen I have to find my reading glasses. I"m right handed, and have bad arthritis in my right hand. Lots of fat finger typos when I type on the touch screen.
    Currently in a discussion with my Insurance company because they offer a discount on auto policies where the car is driven less than 12,000 miles per year. I have four vehicles for my personal use. So four policies. I get the multi car discount, but would also like the under 12,000 miles per car discount. They send a text once a year to your smart phone with a link to their website where you submit a photo of your odometer. They require this to be done from your smart phone. I specifically asked if I could instead use my desktop computer, they said no.
    My smart phone is Android GO for the OS and Google Go for the browser. I can't get their stupid app to work on my phone. Not sure if the problem is my phone's OS and browser, or something else.
    ChrisJ
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    I get by on computers & My Samsung,  but I have caught up...I love being able to watch podcasts,, watch my favorite athletes, bands AND research info instantly.  I remember when My dear Mother Colleen (RIP) told me pre computers 1980s, Pre Trivial Pursuit.. all the Major Newspapers had 24 Hour Hotlines you could call and ask questions on ANY subjects.   Mad Dog 🐕 
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,915
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    WMno57 said:

    ChrisJ said:

    What exactly is "The Smart Phone Generation" ?

    I used that term as a catch all for those who have grown up with information at their fingertips. They use smart phones effectively as a tool to do all kinds of tasks more efficiently than my generation learned how to do things.
    I'm not as old as your father, but I don't like to use my smart phone as much as younger people do. To see the screen I have to find my reading glasses. I"m right handed, and have bad arthritis in my right hand. Lots of fat finger typos when I type on the touch screen.
    Currently in a discussion with my Insurance company because they offer a discount on auto policies where the car is driven less than 12,000 miles per year. I have four vehicles for my personal use. So four policies. I get the multi car discount, but would also like the under 12,000 miles per car discount. They send a text once a year to your smart phone with a link to their website where you submit a photo of your odometer. They require this to be done from your smart phone. I specifically asked if I could instead use my desktop computer, they said no.
    My smart phone is Android GO for the OS and Google Go for the browser. I can't get their stupid app to work on my phone. Not sure if the problem is my phone's OS and browser, or something else.

    Thank you for explaining your thoughts.
    I appreciate it.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    WMno57
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,345
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    WMno57 said:

    To continue helping @cwaz get his steam boiler piped correctly, could we move the Millennial talk to a new Discussion? I have started one here:
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/192709/young-people-the-smart-phone-generation/
    @Erin Holohan Haskell I know you can combine discussions. Is it possible to split a discussion? All the posts after the OPs last post might better fit in the new discussion.

    I've split the discussion and merged it here. Let's keep this productive and focused on @WMno57's questions: "How do existing small businesses hire and train young employees today? How do those small businesses market their services to young customers?" Thanks!

    President
    HeatingHelp.com

    WMno57Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    I'm not sure how you split it,  but I hope I'm posting in the right thread now!  I don't think anyone's CONDEMNING an entire generation, just sharing their honest observations and critiques...isn't that what A Democratic Republic is all about.  We are just pointing out "The Elephant 🐘 in the Room...The emperor has no clothes!"  Please slow down and read carefully...it was my bosses' friend's Son.  It was an amusing example, I thought, but not rare.  This is quite common...the Norm.  Too many of this generation we speak of 45 and under to me.. were raised largely with out discipline, respect and rarely have any personality, parents fault, but NOW as adults going in to the work force, ITS THEIR  PROBLEMO!  It is rare, the home I go in to that a person this age will even say a quick polite, hello. They often refuse to look you in the eye, nod hello, nor will they reslond with more than a grunt after I take the initiative...Even the parents get embarrassed: "Hey!! Mr Sweeney said hello to you....What's wrong with you!!!"  Awkward....The boys are worse than the girls...8 of 10 houses I walk 🚶‍♂️ in to this occurs.  I'm a friendly man, especially to strangers, this IS a major problem...not good...I believe this is a direct result of way too much screen time, by themselves, in their room, or basement and lack of social interaction, manual yard work, lack of discipline et cetera.  Mad Dog  🐕 
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,915
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    Good grief Mad Dog....



    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Mad Dog_2Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 532
    edited June 2023
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    Mad Dog_2 said:

    I'm not sure how you split it,  but I hope I'm posting in the right thread now!  I don't think anyone's CONDEMNING an entire generation, just sharing their honest observations and critiques...isn't that what A Democratic Republic is all about.  We are just pointing out "The Elephant 🐘 in the Room...The emperor has no clothes!"  Please slow down and read carefully...it was my bosses' friend's Son.  It was an amusing example, I thought, but not rare.  This is quite common...the Norm.  Too many of this generation we speak of 45 and under to me.. were raised largely with out discipline, respect and rarely have any personality, parents fault, but NOW as adults going in to the work force, ITS THEIR  PROBLEMO!  It is rare, the home I go in to that a person this age will even say a quick polite, hello. They often refuse to look you in the eye, nod hello, nor will they reslond with more than a grunt after I take the initiative...Even the parents get embarrassed: "Hey!! Mr Sweeney said hello to you....What's wrong with you!!!"  Awkward....The boys are worse than the girls...8 of 10 houses I walk 🚶‍♂️ in to this occurs.  I'm a friendly man, especially to strangers, this IS a major problem...not good...I believe this is a direct result of way too much screen time, by themselves, in their room, or basement and lack of social interaction, manual yard work, lack of discipline et cetera.  Mad Dog  🐕 

    Some background. I'm a septuagenarian boomer, degreed electrical engineer, retired from Boeing. A dozen years ago, going on a solo personal business trip because my wife couldn't get away from her teaching job before the academic year ended, she insisted I not leave without a cell phone. I despised what many of us referred to as "electronic leashes." Still do. She went out and got a prepaid plan and shoved a flip phone in my hands. I took it with me and, upon returning, shut it hard off, then placed it in the car's center console. There it sat until a couple of years ago when 3G went away. She arranged for a "smart phone" replacement, which also resides in the same place in the same power-off status. Never to be used except in an emergency on the road.
    This, and all my Internet activity, is conducted from a desktop PC. I don't think your observations are applicable only to younger people. In my experience, almost everyone carrying what I refer to as stupid phones behaves in the same rude way, avoiding direct interaction. I hang my head in shame to be part of the profession that inflicted this plague on society. It's also had the negative consequence of discouraging physical activity, contributing unnecessarily to the obesity crisis. OK, rant over. Time for me to shut this thing down and spend a half hour on the ski machine. :)
    WMno57Larry Weingarten
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 643
    edited June 2023
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    We hired a 20 year old for the warehouse who grew up and graduated from high school here in NYC.

    He cannot type on a computer. He cannot do fractions. He cannot spell (spells crate as creed, bin as been). He can watch videos on his smartphone no problem, but googling for anything is unheard of.

    Is the educational system to blame?

    He left last week because I gave him a warning about slacking off in the far corners of the warehouse on his phone. He said he felt unappreciated and quit.
    Mad Dog_2leonz
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,915
    edited June 2023
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    dko said:

    We hired a 20 year old for the warehouse who grew up and graduated from high school here in NYC.

    He cannot type on a computer. He cannot do fractions. He cannot spell (spells crate as creed, bin as been). He can watch videos on his smartphone no problem, but googling for anything is unheard of.

    Is the educational system to blame?


    Partially.
    However., parent's are a big part of education and a big part of the problems being discussed here.

    Not the children..... but the parents many of which are from MadDog's and my own generation is who you should be blaming. Not cellphones, not video games, not computers, not schools and not teachers. Gen X parents is where I feel a lot of it started.


    That's my opinion.
    However! I'm not a psychologist or an expert on how the education system works. So perhaps my opinion isn't worth anything on the subject.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    I DO blame the parents...thought I made that abundently clear...I love Smart Phones and what I can do with them.   Sal. I didn't say ONLY the younger generation are glued to their phones, but they ARE the worst of the offenders.  Obviously no one taught them...yes..My Parental  Peers who know better and were not raised like they raised their  kids, are to blame, but now it's the Kids problem to correct....if they can see it.  I  hear many parents my age,, express regret about being too soft on their kids, gave them no chores growing up, let them spend hour after hour on the computer..gaming or whatever its called.  My wife and I saw this happening before we started a Fambly and purposely did the opposite...it worked!  Good Grief Charlie Brown!...Mad Dog 🐕 
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,408
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    My favorite type of tool or machine is something that can sit neglected for years unused, and then work when called upon. Electronics don't fit the bill here. Capacitors and batteries have short lives. Mechanical devices are better, but lubricants gum up (my grandfather's Elgin, and father's Girard-Perregaux). Nikon made their SLRs with loose ball bearings and no lube. That was part of why they were so durable.
    @Sal we need to find you a 5G phone that has Peruvian temple booby trap durability.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr-8AP0To4k&pp=ygUbaW5kaWFuYSBqb25lcyBmYW1vdXMgc2NlbmUg


  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    DKO, I'm sure if he was a willing and hard worker, you'd overwork his Dyslexia or lack of Basic Education.  I had a very self assured, sharp, but supercocky kid working for me.  This was before Smartphones, but he was always on his phone and he dogged it whenever he could.  The final straw is when I couldn't reach I'm or find him anywhere in the house or by the trucks.  O warned him like 5 times about it.  Suddenly; I heard his voice so I looked out the 2nd floor window and he was hiding in an alcove next to the chimney....ON THE PHONE.....That was his last day.  He had the nerve to use me as a reference on his Police Department Application like 4 yrs 
    Later...I Didnt bury him...but he better never give me a speeding ticket!  Mad Dog 🐕 
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,915
    edited June 2023
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    WMno57 said:

    My favorite type of tool or machine is something that can sit neglected for years unused, and then work when called upon. Electronics don't fit the bill here. Capacitors and batteries have short lives. Mechanical devices are better, but lubricants gum up (my grandfather's Elgin, and father's Girard-Perregaux). Nikon made their SLRs with loose ball bearings and no lube. That was part of why they were so durable.
    @Sal we need to find you a 5G phone that has Peruvian temple booby trap durability.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr-8AP0To4k&pp=ygUbaW5kaWFuYSBqb25lcyBmYW1vdXMgc2NlbmUg


    I would think vacuum tubes and oil filled capacitors would be the best fit for that request, no?
    Of course, that's not applicable to many circuits, but, it is what it is.

    Ceramic caps seem pretty stable when not in use.


    However your comment is also why I own a water manometer for checking gas pressure. I know it'll always be accurate no matter what and I rarely use it. I also like balance scales.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    WMno57
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,600
    edited June 2023
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    Hmmm. I have seen this discussion before...

    I know three recent college grads who started work right away making $100k +/-3k. Getting all the perks including remote work when desired. The trades are hard pressed to meet those standards.

    And, many of the younger guys that I work with slack off too much, because they can. They married rich. They are carefree. I don't begrudge them . They can get away with it. It used to piss me off all the time but not anymore.

    I can barely turn lights on because they are controlled by a computer. I see a lot of college educated people running facilities doing maintenance work because they have the computer experience. They can troubleshoot from home. I can too but I'm glad I'm getting out soon. The times, they are a changin'!
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,472
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    Work attitude comes more so from parents or upbringing. I would not depend on public education to instill those values

    Have you been in a high school classroom recently?  It felt more like a day care facility to me
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ChrisJMad Dog_2JUGHNEJakeCK
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 532
    edited June 2023
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    Mad Dog_2 said:

    I DO blame the parents...thought I made that abundently clear...I love Smart Phones and what I can do with them.   Sal. I didn't say ONLY the younger generation are glued to their phones, but they ARE the worst of the offenders.  Obviously no one taught them...yes..My Parental  Peers who know better and were not raised like they raised their  kids, are to blame, but now it's the Kids problem to correct....if they can see it.  I  hear many parents my age,, express regret about being too soft on their kids, gave them no chores growing up, let them spend hour after hour on the computer..gaming or whatever its called.  My wife and I saw this happening before we started a Fambly and purposely did the opposite...it worked!  Good Grief Charlie Brown!...Mad Dog 🐕 

    Matt, I know you didn't claim it was only young people. My comment, since this thread title is explicitly about them, simply pointed out that the affliction is found in all generations. And I agree that, where there is a more severe manifestation of it in the later generations, it's predominantly the parents' fault. However, lets carry this back to its root cause, namely, boomers (I are one), i.e. the generation that raised those parents. I've long played upon Brokaw's The Greatest Generation book title about WWII-era folks by referring to my own cohort as "the worstest generation." For anyone tempted to cite exceptions, please don't waste your time. I know there's no universality. It's a generalization. One I stand by as generally valid. :)
    Somewhat off topic, but earlier (perhaps before this one was separated from another thread), you related the story of your disappointment at a downturn forcing you to close your business and go back to being an employee. Also discussing the way college is promoted over the trades, something that might be slightly diminishing now. I can only speak to my own path. My father was a small-scale general contractor in the Bronx and Yonkers. As a child I watched him struggle through similar downturns, going so far as his taking a part-time department store sales job so we'd always have food on the table. Beyond the fact that, from a very young age, I was fascinated by electronics, and stated my career choice at age four, it became very important to me that I never find myself or my family in that situation. I decided to always be in a position where my skills would be required by large, stable employers. It didn't hurt that, while the old advertising phrase "98-pound weakling" overstates the case, my physical stature isn't quite compatible with who you'd like to have on your crew muscling a cast iron boiler down to a basement. :D
    WMno57 said:

    My favorite type of tool or machine is something that can sit neglected for years unused, and then work when called upon. Electronics don't fit the bill here. Capacitors and batteries have short lives....@Sal we need to find you a 5G phone that has Peruvian temple booby trap durability...

    The most durable 5G phone on earth would still sit unused in my car's center console. :)
    ChrisJ said:

    ...I would think vacuum tubes and oil filled capacitors would be the best fit for that request, no?
    Of course, that's not applicable to many circuits, but, it is what it is.

    Ceramic caps seem pretty stable when not in use...

    It's not longing for the good old days when I express a preference for 7400-series TTL logic-based equipment. We've been in this house for 30 years. Soon after closing, at my wife's insistence, a (then) Brinks security system was installed, built entirely on that technology. ADT has since absorbed Brinks' home security division, and now peddles install-yourself Google stuff. The system we've got, as best I can remember without opening it up now, relies on a relatively large backup gel cell to smooth the power supply's ripple rather than an electrolytic. There's no Internet connectivity, i.e. easy hackability, whatsoever. I've replaced the backup battery once in 30 years. Durable enough for my taste. I've no interest in "modernizing" it. :)