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Any suggestions for vintage tub stem removal?

ChicagoCooperator
ChicagoCooperator Member Posts: 363
edited June 2023 in Plumbing
I'm trying to get the old stems out and they are not budging - I'm soaking them with WD-40 (since the PB Blaster didn't really want to come of out of the can).

They are old American Standard similar to the replacements in the picture. I don't want to over force them and damage the whole valve.

Suggestions?



Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,836
    Which part are you having trouble with, pulling the handle off of the stem or unscrewing the cartridge from the valve body?
  • CLamb
    CLamb Member Posts: 322
    I had a similar problem with mine. https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/170230/which-sort-of-wrench-needed-for-recessed-valve I found that after heating it a little with a torch it came out easily.
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,502
    Leverage..fulcrum...Get a tight fitting crescent or open open on it and slip a 12" long pipe over it. Hit it with a quick jolt.  It should move.  Unless yiu chew up the brass with a poorly fitting wrench, you're not likely to damage the body behind the Wall.  Mad Dog 🐕 
  • ChicagoCooperator
    ChicagoCooperator Member Posts: 363
    The cartridge (got a better picture).... Going to let the oil penetrate for a while.


  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,836
    Get a shower valve socket that fits the cartridge body and use a large pipe wrench to turn the socket, you can get a lot more torque with than with a rod through the hole. It looks like you already removed the packing nut but it is a cartridge similar to this where the stem and threaded part of the cartridge come out as one piece:

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Gerber-G0098673-Tub-Shower-Stem-Bonnet-Assembly-Hot-98-673

    This is a shower valve socket, you need to get the right size:

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Pasco-5300-PASCO-5-Piece-Shower-Valve-Socket-Wrench-Set
    MikeL_2
  • ChicagoCooperator
    ChicagoCooperator Member Posts: 363
    Thanks, btw, for everybody's help! I have the shower valve set (a cheap one) and the stems are just off slightly - I got a socket wrench which fits better but no motion so far. I replaced the set in the other bathroom with less hassle - this bathroom gets heavier use and the stems have been dripping and need replacement unfortunately.

    I'd like to remodel the bathroom anyway - but not this year...
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,836
    A t handle breaker bar can sometimes work better than a regular bar. Try turning in both directions. I'd throw a drop cloth over the tub so you don't chip it if you drop something or it slips off.
  • ChicagoCooperator
    ChicagoCooperator Member Posts: 363
    edited June 2023
    You mean something like this?

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-3-8-in-Drive-x-18-in-Breaker-Bar-H38BB18-06/323222623

    I got a 1" deep socket, but you're right, that might work better.

    Question: I have a heat gun (paint stripping kind) - would that help since I don't have a torch? How long would I want to 'apply heat'?

    And once again, thanks for your tips & suggestions.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,836
    I meant this type although you might need some pipe on the handles:
    https://www.toolsid.com/williams-tools/1-2-drive-15-length-sliding-style-flat-metal-grip-breaker-bar-mpn-32007.html

    A heat gun wouldn't be enough heat.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,836
    If you use a torch you have to be extremely careful not to start a fire inside the wall. It would be better to heat it from the back if there is an access panel because you can wet the wood down and see what is happening and put a fireproof shield between the torch and the structure but even then I don't recommend either with a structure that is made of old, very dry wood. An acetylene torch would be easier to control but I would just use penetrating oil for a week or 2 then a large pipe or breaker bar.
    JimP
  • ChicagoCooperator
    ChicagoCooperator Member Posts: 363
    Thanks, luckily this isn't a wood frame building - the plumbing wall is a mix of brick and clay tile (no chase, pipes are just in the masonry)..
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,431
    edited June 2023
    Dealt with same issue two years ago with 100 yo Speakman valves; see below for link the HH thread. 

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,836
    PC7060 said:

    Dealt with same issue two years ago with 100 yo Speakman valves; see below for link the HH thread. 


    when you say 100 year old i think 1902, not 1925...
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,502
    We call the Stem Socket Set "Dumbells."
    They are ok for most stems, but they aren't the highest quality steel and can slip if you really have a Brutal one.  If you can get a Sears or Snap on Socket to fit, that's great but you're usually dealing with the long stem handle and broach you have to slide past.  Mad Dog  🐕 
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,384
    What Mad Dog says. Big automotive socket instead of cow bells. Don't use extender on socket driver. You may gingerly rap a tap tap. I knew an old timer who could safely undo any thing with his manual impact driver. He said that first he twists wrong way???
    Mad Dog_2
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,579
    Hi, I’ve had good luck using a deep well, six point socket for this. Finding the right socket is the hardest part of the job. 😏

    Yours, Larry
    MikeAmannMad Dog_2Long Beach Ed
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,257
    A deep socket 6 point. Probably get a whole set if US and metrics at Harbor freight for 20 bucks😗
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,384
    hot_rod said:

    A deep socket 6 point. Probably get a whole set if US and metrics at Harbor freight for 20 bucks😗

    Big ones? Need bigger than one inch & DEEP.
  • reggi
    reggi Member Posts: 523
     I got a 1" deep socket, but you're right, that might work better. 

    Does the 1" deep socket FIT over the cartridge ?
    Is that the correct socket?
    If the issue is the tile obstructing a real socket from fitting over the cartridge I would start by  .  ..
    1. Clean off the tile face
    2. Tape Masking Tape around the plumbing cutout in the tile 
    3 . Alingn your socket over the stem
    4. Trace whatever doesn't fit in hole with a pencil
    5. Get out a Half Round rasp file and use the end to cut away at the tile until the socket fits....or use a Dremel or any drill attachment that's made for tile....
    The file gives you better control and less chance of doing any damages..

    From your picture it looks tight around the bottom of the cartridge/hole 

    One way to get familiar something you know nothing about is to ask a really smart person a really stupid question
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 2,635
    edited June 2023
    I wouldn't use PB Blaster. There is a new product that I haven't tried, but the commercial is encouraging.

    Mad Dog_2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,836
    seafoam deep creep has been around for a long time. aerokroil is another one.
    Mad Dog_2
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 2,635
    I meant to reference Superzilla and not Seafoam.
    Mad Dog_2
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,384
    I like those metal plates so that I can work on fixture without worrying about tiles. One inch socket is too small methinks.
    reggi said:



     I got a 1" deep socket, but you're right, that might work better. 

    Does the 1" deep socket FIT over the cartridge ?
    Is that the correct socket?
    If the issue is the tile obstructing a real socket from fitting over the cartridge I would start by  .  ..
    1. Clean off the tile face
    2. Tape Masking Tape around the plumbing cutout in the tile 
    3 . Alingn your socket over the stem
    4. Trace whatever doesn't fit in hole with a pencil
    5. Get out a Half Round rasp file and use the end to cut away at the tile until the socket fits....or use a Dremel or any drill attachment that's made for tile....
    The file gives you better control and less chance of doing any damages..

    From your picture it looks tight around the bottom of the cartridge/hole 



  • ChicagoCooperator
    ChicagoCooperator Member Posts: 363
    Thanks everybody - heading to the hardware store shortly. Took yesterday off worrying about it (spent time outside). Will keep you posted on progress.
  • CLamb
    CLamb Member Posts: 322

    Question: I have a heat gun (paint stripping kind) - would that help since I don't have a torch? How long would I want to 'apply heat'?

    I had used Kroil to to no effect. I heated it until the oil began to smoke. However I first wetted down the area and put a nonflammable material around the back and sides. Also have a fire extinguisher handy. I also directed the flame almost parallel to the wall. A heat gun might work.

  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,172
    jumper said:

    I like those metal plates so that I can work on fixture without worrying about tiles. One inch socket is too small methinks.

    reggi said:



     I got a 1" deep socket, but you're right, that might work better. 

    Does the 1" deep socket FIT over the cartridge ?
    Is that the correct socket?
    If the issue is the tile obstructing a real socket from fitting over the cartridge I would start by  .  ..
    1. Clean off the tile face
    2. Tape Masking Tape around the plumbing cutout in the tile 
    3 . Alingn your socket over the stem
    4. Trace whatever doesn't fit in hole with a pencil
    5. Get out a Half Round rasp file and use the end to cut away at the tile until the socket fits....or use a Dremel or any drill attachment that's made for tile....
    The file gives you better control and less chance of doing any damages..

    From your picture it looks tight around the bottom of the cartridge/hole 



    This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is a great idea.

    If you need something with a little more strength to it, a deep socket or a regular socket. If you use a regular socket Let the regular socket slide through the stem. Meaning, don't use the ratchet. Use an adjustable or pipe wrench on the outside of the socket to turn the stem out.
    Larry Weingarten