How Bad is it. Gas Steam Boiler Piping

mattmia2

The gas you have to calculate the pressure drop of each section at the needed flow and see if it is less than 1/2 in water column if you want to be conservative about it. The drop of the combination can't just be looked up in a table, assuming none of that piping is share between appliances.

Mad Dog_2

To save time, could you post it up here?  In class today.  Didn't wanna go there (because this doesn't guarantee or mean your getting a VG job, but it IS a safety of sorts)  but has he pulled a permit? Will there be an inspection?  Is he a Licensed Master Plumber? Do you know his word of mouth referrals that you could talk to?  Mad Dog 🐕 

JakeCK

I've learned word of mouth referrals don't mean jack. Most people can't tell the difference between their butt and a hole in the ground, how can they be qualified to judge the work of something as complex as a central heating system? I wanna see qualifications, insurance, etc. And even then...

And I'm sorry but if anyone disagrees, go work computer tech support for a while. 

pecmsg

cwaz said:

There is no way I am accepting the job as it is, or anything short of abiding by the manufacturer’s specifications. 

@bmma The contract does not specifically mention manufactured specifications, that’s most likely on me, perhaps I should have requested that.  I just assumed that would be the bare minimum for a “professional” install.  

I can pretty much guarantee there will be strong push back from him, especially when I bring up additional concerns that I seem to keep finding every time I glance at it. 

My most recent concern is the gas supply…. The 125k BTU boiler is supplied by 1/2” CSST that runs 18’ up and back to a 1” black pipe which then runs 27’ horizontally to the meter. The 1/2” CSST does not have any other appliances drawing from it and the 1” black pipe feeds the rest of the house after it tees off for the boiler run.  According to the schedule 40 pipe table, it is undersized, but according to the gastite website it is acceptable. Would anyone be able to clarity and cite this for me?  I want to have all my ducks in a row come Monday.   

Is that CSST electrically bonded?

https://www.iccsafe.org/building-safety-journal/bsj-technical/codenotes-bonding-of-corrugated-stainless-steel-tubing-gas-piping-systems/

Mad Dog_2

Right...word of mouth alone is NEVER good enough in and of itself.  Its just a strong part of the vetting process.  Like anything else...always know the source of the info and base info on THAT persons veracity.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Great point on the bonding.  If this guy didn't  pull a permit, you've got some leverage over him.  One step at a time.  Try to get this worked out with him if possible.  Mad Dog 🐕 

realliveplumber

The csst with the black jacket is not required to be bonded, but the ends need to be wrapped with the manufacturers approved tape.

JakeCK

Mad Dog_2 said:

Right...word of mouth alone is NEVER good enough in and of itself.  Its just a strong part of the vetting process.  Like anything else...always know the source of the info and base info on THAT persons veracity.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Eh, maybe I'm just pessimistic. But I've been burned before when that was the deciding factor and all else being equal. 

Mad Dog_2

Everybody gets S@%$#!!! At one time or another...as Careful and diligent as we are, humans are fallible....The "Great" Contractor your neighbors used develops a Cocaine problem, gambling issue,  mid life crisis, or the great employee leaves and the situation changes..  Mad Dog  🐕 

Mad Dog_2

So...any updates from the OP?  Mad Dog 🐕 

leonz

Hello cwaz,

AS a homeowner I must agree with everyone else; have him start over and remove the piping all the way back to the riser tapping and the side tappings and start with a boiler with no pipe on it and follow the boiler builder instructions EXACTLY on how to assemble the piping AND replace the gas pipe with a hard pipe.

If the boiler builders installation instructions are not followed exactly and heaven forbid if something happens you will lose in a battle with the insurance company.

Having a plumbing inspector look at his job would probably guarantee it gets a red tag/fail if he does not show up.

Mad Dog_2

So.......what happened?????   Mad Dog 🐕 

BobC

I have found you need to be violating a safety rule to get an inspector to fail an installation or worse yet impinge his tee time.

Mad Dog_2

The really good inspectors will quote the codes (to paraphrase) "...All work shall be done in a neat, workmanlike manner."  One inspector I know knocks down hack jobs all the time with that line.  They kick and scream but they ain't passin the inspection until they clean it up.  Mad Dog 🐕 

reggi

And what sucks is how many customers he may of convinced after a install like that it's the modern steam boilers and he hooked it up just like the old one.. 30 years and NO complaints... That should tell you Cut your losses... I wouldn't trust him a second time.. JMHO.. ( 100% as a consumer) 
I don't even know if that pop-off valve is installed correctly..
You didn't look hard enough... he's got complaints somewhere ..
I'd check his license first..
https://newjersey.mylicense.com/verification/Search.aspx?facility=Y
A random search comes up with a lot of Expired or Pending status so it wouldn't hurt to verify..
Also you can prepare by downloading and reviewing the appropriate form so you know what ducks you need in a row from
https://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/pages/file-a-complaint-old.aspx

EdTheHeaterMan

cwaz said:

There is no way I am accepting the job as it is, or anything short of abiding by the manufacturer’s specifications. 

@bmma The contract does not specifically mention manufactured specifications, that’s most likely on me, perhaps I should have requested that.  I just assumed that would be the bare minimum for a “professional” install.  

I can pretty much guarantee there will be strong push back from him, especially when I bring up additional concerns that I seem to keep finding every time I glance at it. 

My most recent concern is the gas supply…. The 125k BTU boiler is supplied by 1/2” CSST that runs 18’ up and back to a 1” black pipe which then runs 27’ horizontally to the meter. The 1/2” CSST does not have any other appliances drawing from it and the 1” black pipe feeds the rest of the house after it tees off for the boiler run.  According to the schedule 40 pipe table, it is undersized, but according to the gastite website it is acceptable. Would anyone be able to clarity and cite this for me?  I want to have all my ducks in a row come Monday.   

You need to look at the entire piping system from the meter location to all the appliances. Your boiler may operate properly if no other appliances are operating. There may be a problem id other appliances are operating at the same time.

Can you draw a diagram of the complete gas system? Include the numbers or elbows and tees and all the pipe sizes. It might look something like this:

With this diagram we can figure out the capacity of the gas pipe under a normal load to see if it is large enough

cwaz

He couldn’t make it today….. he is coming out tomorrow, allegedly.  I will keep you all posted as soon as he does. (If he does). 

I’ll also try to get a diagram of my gas supply system as well.  

Thanks again everyone. 

Mad Dog_2

If were going down that road take a picture of your gas meter.  Need to make sure its the correct size.  Mad 🐕 Dog 

cwaz

@EdTheHeaterMan
It’s no CAD drawing but at least I got to use my kid’s colored pencils. 

leonz

I would still hard pipe the gas line to the boiler and get rid of the gastite.

Mad Dog_2

The 250 Class is in within range.  No gastite....Hard pipe your gas.  Its very easy for an unknowing person down the line to cut in to that flex tubing or puncture it with a screw.  Like Dan once said : "Its like wearing a pair of white sneakers with a Tuxedo....."  No thanks....Mad Dog 🐕 

mattmia2

If the gastite is approved by the local code and is installed according to the manufacturer's instructions, it is a terrible idea but there is no leverage to get it replaced without paying for it. If it is undersized there is room to advocate for black iron but unless it was specified in the contract there is no obligation.

Mad Dog_2

Agreed, but if the Contractor cares about his reputation, he'll do the right thing and make the HO happy.  I'd really like to see this situation turned around and everyone walks away with their honor intact and a happy customer.  Unfortunately, many of my own "peers" will get defensive and stand their ground. The guy probably doesn't even know the HO is here...  Mad dog 

Mad Dog_2

Being on an Examining Board of Plumbers, I always try to mediate these difficult situations before they get out of control.  Mad Dog 🐕 

EdTheHeaterMan

According to my calculations, the existing Gas pipe is not large enough. But it may be if the pressure drop is greater than .5" wc. This can be accomplished by increasing the pressure at the meter. since your appliances may only need 5" wc inlet pressure and you have measured as much as 7" wc (with all appliances off) then there is still enough gas with say a 1.0" wc pressure drop. See the difference in the pipe sizing with just a small pressure drop difference (attached files), from .3 to .5" wc. The gas pipe size from the 1" min to the steam boiler changes from 1" to 3/4"

There is a Gastite chart that allows for 1/2" pipe to the steam boiler but the pressure drop is much greater than the existing system design. So in my opinion, the 1/2" Gastite is not large enough. You should have at least 1" Gastite for your system design. That is based on reading the proper charts.

tim smith

I agree that if the gas pipe is the right size and your local code allows it, it would be hard to enforce a change. Not the way I would do it but you need to follow code and sizing per IFGC. The pipe up of boiler is wrong per manual. I think all local codes if not specific they reference installed according to mfrs instructions. I can't see where that can be argued.

EdTheHeaterMan

I am wondering how @cwaz made out with the installer? I sure hope that he still owes some money. That will be the only leverage in the case of the belligerent contractor.

Mad Dog_2

Yep....It always amazes me how most people just take it on the chin and let them off the hook.  I know it can be very contentious and uncomfortable,  and they don't want the aggravation.  I'd like an update too.  Mad Dog  🐕 

cwaz

Ok, so the prodigal son has returned and has already disassembled all of their near boiler piping, gas supply piping and the MC drop. He wouldn’t go as far as to apologize, but he acknowledged it was not set up as per manufacturers specs.  He is set to return Wednesday to repipe in all cast iron.  

I do believe in second chances so let’s see how this plays out.  Luckily I have only paid him the cost of the boiler, which I found a fair request, and it is the middle of summer, so I have time on my side.

WMno57

Hang in there @cwaz. If your contractor would like some tips on how to pipe this, he is welcome to post here. I know there are retired contractors here on HeatingHelp who would like to pass on their knowledge and skills to the next generation.

Mad Dog_2

My offer stands, I will gladly speak to him on your behalf..PRO BONO...I am extremely adept at Mediating these disputes on my Plumbing Examining
 Board role and As a Paid plumbing & heating 👌 consultant.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

I'm never retiring and always busy, but I HATE to see People get a screwing when they think they are hiring the right guy...'If you want something done ask a busy person"  I always liked that quote...tends to be true too.  Call me anytime 516.322.2881 Here to mediate to a satisfactory solution for both parties.   Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

I'm never retiring and always busy, but I HATE to see People get a screwing when they think they are hiring the right guy...'If you want something done ask a busy person"  I always liked that quote...tends to be true too.  Call me anytime 516.322.2881 Here to mediate to a satisfactory solution for both parties.   Mad Dog 🐕 

I've found "If you want something done right, do it yourself" to be accurate.

reggi

cwaz said:

Ok, so the prodigal son has returned and has already disassembled all of their near boiler piping, gas supply piping and the MC drop. He wouldn’t go as far as to apologize, but he acknowledged it was not set up as per manufacturers specs.  He is set to return Wednesday to repipe in all cast iron.  

I do believe in second chances so let’s see how this plays out.  Luckily I have only paid him the cost of the boiler, which I found a fair request, and it is the middle of summer, so I have time on my side.

Take a picture...it should be easy to tell if he bailed or might be coming back to do it right just by seeing how he left things...
PM me his name and I'll check him out before you let him mess around again..30 years and NO complaints..

EdTheHeaterMan

Wednesday has come and gone... I wonder if there is any update from @cwaz

reggi

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Wednesday has come and gone... I wonder if there is any update from @cwaz

And Thursday....  🐙