How Bad is it. Gas Steam Boiler Piping

cwaz

Long story short, decided to convert to gas from heating oil and am currently in the middle of having the work completed. I have a few concerns and want to make sure they are well founded. 

1- top of Hartford loop is about 2” above water line. (Installer stated this is not a concern due to the run of copper pipe on the chimney side of the boiler). Picture #4 shows current loop, water line and suggested loop. 

2- Bottom of header is only 20.5” above the water line, not the 24” as recommended.  

**It is a Weil McLain EG40/Series 6**

I’ll take any other advice too!

Thanks in advance. 

Steamhead

That's definitely wrong. Post the model number (PEG- or EG-something) so we can look it up and see just how wrong.

cwaz

It is a Weil McLain EG40/ Series 6.

EdTheHeaterMan

That looks like the Gifford Loop. That is similar to a Hartford loop except it is piped in above the water line. There is a article on that here somewhere. I don' think that is what the installed intended. I think the installed didn't want to tale the return piping. equalizer piping apart and place the piping in the correct location according the the Weil McLain instructions. Just Lazy

Hold back 25% of the total job until next heating season to see if it will work correctly.

OR

Pipe according the the diagram in the instruction book

Give them a choice.

Make the header look like the diagram


Make the Hartford loop look like the diagram


I have actually placed a replacement boiler on a block base so the water line of the new boiler was at the same level as the old boiler (it was my first steamer I installed solo. I knew that there was a lot that i didn't know so I thought it was a good idea to make the water line match the existing piping that worked for so many years.

Since the "Steam Chest" of the old boiler was so much larger that the "Steam Shoebox" of the new boiler the near boiler piping needs to take the place of that old boiler's steam chest. With only one riser from the boiler, it needs to be 2-1/2" with a 2-1/2" header.

Says so in the instructions See the attachment below

cwaz

Thank you Ed, would you be concerned about the header being 3.5” lower than specified in the manual? 

random12345

I could be wrong, but it looks like he gave you a 2 inch riser and header instead of the required 2 1/2 inch specified in the manual.

https://supplyhouse.com/Everflow-BMNL0200-2-Black-90176-Elbow
https://supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-BLE250-2-1-2-Black-90-Elbow

EdTheHeaterMan

cwaz said:

Thank you Ed, would you be concerned about the header being 3.5” lower than specified in the manual? 

You really don't have a header... You have 2 risers with a horizontal section that will collect water and cause noise. You need to get that horizontal pipe out of there. Next thing is to pipe the boiler according to the diagram, with all the dimensions, diameters and lengths as required with a 2" outlet on the branch of the header (between the riser and the equalizer). Once that is done... that is the boiler package. figure 18. The only reason it does not come assembled that way is for shipping, other wise they would assemble it to keep idiots from making mistakes like your contractor did.

Once the boiler package is assembled your contractor can position the supply opening on the top of the header close to the system piping (or directly under the riser) and connect that opening to the system with a vertical pipe. (like in the illustration where it says "Steam to System")

STEAM DOCTOR

Baaaaad. There is a bullhead T by the equalizer connection. The first horizontal pipe, will probably give you water issues. If  pitched away from the boiler riser, will have trapped water in the elbow. Even if pich d towards the boiler, will probably still give your water/water hammer issues. Potential for water and steam colliding. 

EzzyT

All wrong, start all over. Some will say do the manufacturers bare minimum to cover one behind. But some on this site know that the manufacturers numbers are wrong and won’t insure that dry steam will be distributed into the system. 

Let’s hope for your sake that the boiler is the right size. If I where you I would have the current contractor stop and reach out to a knowledgeable contractor that know steam heating. 

Where are you located?

cwaz

Great…. I knew it was bad, just didn’t know how bad.  Located in Union County NJ. 

mattmia2

cwaz said:

Thank you Ed, would you be concerned about the header being 3.5” lower than specified in the manual? 

I'd be concerned about the header being constructed to give any water that carries over no place to go but in the mains. the header is just plain wrong. look at the manual.

EzzyT

@cwaz I cover your area reach out to me at 2018878856 and we can set something up 

Mad Dog_2

Yes...Poor install.  Besides all the other mistakes, I don't see a drain anywhere on that Wet Return coming in to the Bottom of The Sorta-Hartford Loop....no bypass on the water feeder..  Look, you're paying good $$$ here..either the installer acknowledges that he's not following the Manufacturer's specs and hits the reset button, or you fire him.  Why should you "settle" and hope for the best?  Its not a big deal...a days labor and a few hundred in fittings.  He'll be a better plumber for it and you'll get the right job.  Give him a chance to redeem himself.  Everything he needs to do is IN THE WM MANUAL... Print off some sheets and highlight the issues.  He can't deny that.  Good luck.  Keep us posted.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Am I hallucinating...or is that gas drop bent ...or is it some kind if black flex CSST?   Mad Dog 🐕 

EdTheHeaterMan

Mad Dog_2

Yep...that is a Flex.  I don't care if its legal in NJ...It's lame.  Have him hard pipe it.  Two hours work....Mad Dog 🐕 

EdTheHeaterMan

Mad Dog_2 said:

Am I hallucinating...or is that gas drop bent ...or is it some kind if black flex CSST?   Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog, You are always Hallucinating... ... But that gas pipe is black CSST. It is the newer stuff that will resist the pin holes caused by a lightning strike on the old yellow CSST. Not sure how that works so I stopped using the stuff. I found pinholes on some CSST I ran outside a home up the side of the house to the attic to feed a furnace. covered it with downspout like refrigerant lines. Smelled gas on one side of the house and decided to do a leak test on the house lines. Narrowed it down to the new pipe I installed 4 years earlier. Once that happened, i ripped out the CSST and put hard pipe to the attic.

No Charge to the customer. Took the tubing back to supply house and said this crap is junk. That is when I found out about the lightning strike pin hole thing. The installation manuals were all updated to be sure to run ground wires from the CSST to the earth ground rod (or install one if there was none close to the gas pipe).

I wonder how many of those CSST systems are full of pinholes that no one knows about?

Mad Dog_2

Born in the Summer Of Love Special Ed...1967...Stuck in the 1960s man.....Either way, hard pipe it.  Also, That BX drop is not up to code. EMT mast is easy enough to do.  This installer may have nothing to do with the water heater, but that looks the Relief valve is piped down in black pipe.  No good.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

We don't talk prices here, but just curious??
Did you get a few quotes and where did this guy fall in the mix and why did you pick him?  Mad Dog 🐕 

cwaz

I have definitely been had.  I got 3 quotes, he was in the middle and came recommended from a few people who used him to switch to gas from oil.  I am not sure where I went wrong. My setup didn’t seem overly complicated compared to the others…I also didn’t babysit him as I assumed at least the manufactures specs would have been followed. 

I will speak with him tomorrow and see what happens. Thank you all for your input and advice.  Fingers crossed he will do right. 

I will keep you all updated. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

@cwaz

Anything larger than 2" black pipe requires what most redidential plumbers/pipefitters would call "special eqipment" That's because they are not real steam guys. 2 " and under is easy 2 1/2 and up requires different equipment. He could always measure carefully and have a supply house that cuts and threads larger pipe .....and I am not talking a big box store cut and thread for him.

He will probably tell you that the old supply is 2" and the header and riser don't need to be enlarged.

He will also tell you he has been doing it this way for 20, 30 or 40 years

And he would be wrong.

It's simple. Follow the MFG instructions that is what he owes you

EdTheHeaterMan

I wonder if the contract you signed has any wording like "according to manufacturer's instructions" or "according to industry standards' “.

Whatever the case, the contractor has demonstrated that they are not knowledgeable on the installation of steam boilers. (maybe they are good at water boilers). With that in mind, Hold back 25% until you can actually operate the boiler under real life conditions. If they want all the money, they will stay and get it right.

STEAM DOCTOR

Different jurisdictions have different allowances for exposed BX and for flex gas line. If allowable in your jurisdiction, then you can't really force him to change. Whether or not it's best practice, is a different discussion. But pick your battles.  

mattmia2

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I wonder if the contract you signed has any wording like "according to manufacturer's instructions" or "according to industry standards' “.

I'm sure the mechanical code does.

Mad Dog_2

I'm with you boys, but I'm taking a harder line.  The job is NOT done yet.  The installer needs to be educated here...hopefully he takes it well.  Give him a chance, he may have never done a Steamer.  He's welcome to come here if he's amenable.  In fact, if you'd like Sir, I will walk him through with what needs to be done via phone or text. (Matt 516.322.2881 ) Plumber to plumber. Ill help him.    That being said, Ed I respectfully disagree..once he's gone and gets paid...the HO is left holding the bag.  I would not give him another cent until he corrected everything.  If he CHOOSES to be a Knuckle head...let him walk.  I know Minimum codes differ from State to state...Town to town, but Why should the HO get a "minimalist" install.  If the guy can't put one 90 degree bend on a piece of 1/2" EMT & Change some screw pipe, he's not ready for prime time. I hate seeing the HO given the short shrift...especially when he went by references and Not the lowest bidder.....Mad Dog 🐕 

HVACNUT

cwaz said:

I have definitely been had.  I got 3 quotes, he was in the middle and came recommended from a few people who used him to switch to gas from oil. 

Did those few people have steam?

Mad Dog_2

Hmmmmm...wondered what transpired?  Hopefully, the worked it out.  Mad Dog 🐕 

cwaz

Spoke with him today, it’s almost as if you guys wrote a script for him…. “I’ve been doing this for 30 years”, “ I have never had anyone complain”etc. Supposedly he is coming out Monday to take a look. We shall see. Thank you all for validating my concern.  

EBEBRATT-Ed

@cwaz

You could tell him he has been doing it wrong for 30 years but that wouldn't make the conversation go well.

Mad Dog_2

Show him the manual and tell him, you expect to it be done to The Manufacturer's specs since THEY will be honoring the Warranty or NOT based on his installation.  He could retire, get sick, die, skip town,  tommorow,  and You'll be left holding the bag.  Mad Dog  🐕 

EdTheHeaterMan

I like to ask leading questions, Like:

1. I wonder why the manufacturer put these minimum dimensions in the instruction manual?
   
2. I believe you when you say you have installed boilers for a long time. I just can't wrap my head around the pipe design and sizes you used and the ones in the manual.
   
3. Were all the boilers you installed Steam? Were any on the boilers you installed water boilers?
   
4. From what I gather form this HeatingHelp forum, A professional Steam man includes main vents and radiator vents (on one pipe) with new boiler installs. Your contract says nothing about that.
   
5. I'm no pipe size expert, but I think this is 2" pipe and the manual clearly states 2-1/2" if you have only one riser from the boiler.
   
6. Were you going to use 2 risers or only one?
   
7. And this first header does not have an equalizer, how does the water get back to the boiler?
   
8. I really like to know because you are the expert and I just can't see the path of the water in this design.
   
9. Do you believe this will operate flawlessly in December?
   
10. Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is?
    
11. I believe this $XXXX.00 should go in an escrow account until the boiler is operating properly in December.
    
12. You will not have to live with the noise or the cold home choice, you get to go home at night. I get to stay here at night and live with your design, be it right or wrong.
    
13. Do you believe an informed consumer is a good consumer?
    
14. If I am not understanding what I am reading, I would like you to explain it in simple terms. Use examples that I can understand. I don't think this is Rocket Surgery... I believe it is simple and basic stuff.
    
15. If you can't explain it to me, then how can I be sure you understand it yourself?
    
16. You are the one with all the experience. What words would you use to allow your apprentice to understand this design?
    
    
    
    

JakeCK

EdTheHeaterMan said:

They'd bring the temp up to 120f? O.O

You learn something everyday.

Mad Dog_2

Devastating Ed!   Perfect.  I just hope  the HO follows through...most people feel funny and wind up backing off.  Stand your ground!  Mad Dog 🐕 

KC_Jones

cwaz said:

Spoke with him today, it’s almost as if you guys wrote a script for him…. “I’ve been doing this for 30 years”, “ I have never had anyone complain”etc. Supposedly he is coming out Monday to take a look. We shall see. Thank you all for validating my concern.  

I have a rule. If anyone ever tells me how long they have been doing anything, they are automatically a hack. Why? Well if someone tells me that, their work has already sent a clear message.

There is a picture in the manual, this isn't rocket science.

ChrisJ

How bad is it?

Well, if 0 is the minimum required for it to heat properly and +10 is excellent that's somewhere between -10 and -8. It would be an F in school.

Mad Dog_2

He gets an F, but I appreciated Professors who gave you a redo.  Give him the opportunity to make it right.  If you get ANY  resistance or bad attitude OR he says he "needs more $$$.."   tell him you're done.  Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

He gets an F, but I appreciated Professors who gave you a redo.  Give him the opportunity to make it right.  If you get ANY  resistance or bad attitude OR he says he "needs more $$$.."   tell him you're done.  Mad Dog 🐕 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with admitting you messed up and correcting it.
As long as it's not a fight like we often see.

Mad Dog_2

Absolutely 💯.....Everyone deserves an opportunity to redeem themselves.  Mad Dog 🐕 

bmma

Question for the original poster, do you have a contract with the installer and if so, what does it say? If the contract says anything about being installed in accordance with manufacturer's instructions, he clearly didn't uphold his end of the contract. He needs to fix things and you shouldn't pay him until he does, but if you have a contract with that language he'd have a really hard time pushing back on you.

reggi

As a consumer I say get rid of him.... 30 years and NO complaints is a fairytale.. don't be a sucker and fall for whatever stories he'll be shoveling next.... you can't possibly be the first job he knuckled....he must have a line that kept him off the radar this long....watch... it's coming... JMHO 

cwaz

There is no way I am accepting the job as it is, or anything short of abiding by the manufacturer’s specifications. 

@bmma The contract does not specifically mention manufactured specifications, that’s most likely on me, perhaps I should have requested that.  I just assumed that would be the bare minimum for a “professional” install.  

I can pretty much guarantee there will be strong push back from him, especially when I bring up additional concerns that I seem to keep finding every time I glance at it. 

My most recent concern is the gas supply…. The 125k BTU boiler is supplied by 1/2” CSST that runs 18’ up and back to a 1” black pipe which then runs 27’ horizontally to the meter. The 1/2” CSST does not have any other appliances drawing from it and the 1” black pipe feeds the rest of the house after it tees off for the boiler run.  According to the schedule 40 pipe table, it is undersized, but according to the gastite website it is acceptable. Would anyone be able to clarity and cite this for me?  I want to have all my ducks in a row come Monday.