EDR vs Boiler Size

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Is a 303 SQ. FT. rated Crown Freeport 2 FSZ080 close enough in size to my 239 SQ. FT. of EDR? It's the smallest they make. The Megasteam equivalent is also rated for 288 SQ. FT. But a reputable boiler installer in my area uses Crown. It's pretty much the same 3 pass boiler . Thanks.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Also should the boiler be slightly oversized when it will be using a tankless coil?

Big Ed_4

Also add the lack of pipe insulation if it was removed and not replaced ...

Jamie Hall

Both of them are going to be oversized. Enough, in fact, to give some problems with cycling. Can either be downfired? Some boilers can, but a really good technician.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Crown boiler makes a 246 sq ft oil boiler, the Kingston KSB065. It's not a 3 pass though.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

https://www.velocityboilerworks.com/documents/Kingston_KSB_Literature.pdf

Jamie Hall

Ollie_Hopnoodle said:

Crown boiler makes a 246 sq ft oil boiler, the Kingston KSB065. It's not a 3 pass though.

That would be the one to use then...

Ollie_Hopnoodle

I still have reservations about getting a new pin boiler based on some research on them failing above the water line, especially with the high chloride levels in southern New England, and them being harder to maintain than a 3 pass. But since the smallest three pass boiler is almost 65 sqft bigger than I need, then the pin may be the best oil boiler option, unless the 3 pass boiler can be downfired.

mattmia2

Talk to the manufacturers about downfiring and find a contractor that is on board. If the contractor doesn't understand that your steam install is likely to be a nightmare anyhow.

Energy Kinetics is the cadillac if you really want top of the line but it also has cadillac prices, but their support is excellent, they can tell you what they can do for you.

mattmia2

Wait, does EK make steam boilers? I thought they did but now it isn't clear on their web site.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Energy Kinetics is a hot water boiler system, no steam. I just called.

random12345

@Ollie_Hopnoodle I'm confused, I read your other posts. I thought you were converting to gas. Now you're staying with oil? What's changed?

ChrisJ

random12345 said:

@Ollie_Hopnoodle I'm confused, I read your other posts. I thought you were converting to gas. Now you're staying with oil? What's changed?

Either guys that sell oil talked them out of it, or the gas company is charging to install the service would be my guess.

Jamie Hall

Ollie_Hopnoodle said:

I still have reservations about getting a new pin boiler based on some research on them failing above the water line, especially with the high chloride levels in southern New England, and them being harder to maintain than a 3 pass. But since the smallest three pass boiler is almost 65 sqft bigger than I need, then the pin may be the best oil boiler option, unless the 3 pass boiler can be downfired.

Water quality is important -- in any boiler, steam, hot water, multiple pass, pin type. Doesn't matter. What does matter is first, no leams. Constantly adding water will kill any boiler. Noe, since you have fixed the leaks, if your local water is high in chlorides (not all is, even in Sorthern New England" -- mine, for instance, is very low, as is the entire Hartford, Connecticut Metropolitan District service area) -- call your water supplier or, if you are on a private well, your local health district) -- use deionized water for that initial fill. No problem at all..

WMno57

How about a correct sized pin boiler running on bottled water? I use walmart distilled water in my cars. Was a buck a gallon a few years ago.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

@ChrisJ it's more like the steam boiler installation guys around here that are trying to talk me out of gas. Considering I have a new oil tank. More maintenance on an oil boiler which is more bushiness for them, I guess. I currently have a crusty 2005 V8 Burnham with a hole in the block and with an aging decroded tankless coil and my monthly oil bill is pretty low. RI oil prices are 2.84 a gallon today. Oil is still pretty popular here. I'm just weighing all my options before I make my final decision on a new boiler. Thanks everyone for all for your input!

EdTheHeaterMan

WMno57 said:

How about a correct sized pin boiler running on bottled water? I use walmart distilled water in my cars. Was a buck a gallon a few years ago.

I have seen dear nuts under a Buck!

random12345

Ollie_Hopnoodle said:

RI oil prices are 2.84 a gallon today. Oil is still pretty popular here. I'm just weighing all my options before I make my final decision on a new boiler. Thanks everyone for all for your input!

Is that for a full service oil company or discount? That's a damn good price, but still significantly more than gas. We have a megasteam with tankless coil. I wish we had gone with gas and a separate tank water heater, but our situation had a radiant heat loop we didn't want to get rid of. I don't recommend a tankless coil no matter what. Just wasteful.

One more thing is that the higher 87% efficiency of the megasteam significantly lowers the flue gas temperature, and in our external chimney, that caused condensation which was starting to eat away at the inside of the flue, so we had to pay for a new stainless steel liner. If you convert to gas, you might need a new liner as well I'm guessing.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

random12345 said:

Ollie_Hopnoodle said:

RI oil prices are 2.84 a gallon today. Oil is still pretty popular here. I'm just weighing all my options before I make my final decision on a new boiler. Thanks everyone for all for your input!

Is that for a full service oil company or discount? That's a damn good price, but still significantly more than gas. We have a megasteam with tankless coil. I wish we had gone with gas and a separate tank water heater, but our situation had a radiant heat loop we didn't want to get rid of. I don't recommend a tankless coil no matter what. Just wasteful.

One more thing is that the higher 87% efficiency of the megasteam significantly lowers the flue gas temperature, and in our external chimney, that caused condensation which was starting to eat away at the inside of the flue, so we had to pay for a new stainless steel liner. If you convert to gas, you might need a new liner as well I'm guessing.

Not sure about if they are a full service oil company. They just take orders of minimum 100 gallons, and they have techs that come once a year for cleaning/ annual maintenance. Here's the RI oil prices.

I'm not so sure if the gas is cheaper, at least in my case. My tenant has the exact same EDR and layout as me below, (with a new gas boiler) and their heating bill is higher than ours, especially during the coldest months.

I dont really need a stainless liner, I recently had it checked out. My chimney is in the inside of the house.

https://www.newenglandoil.com/rhodeisland/zone4.asp?x=0

If so many people on here are against the tankless coil, then why do all the expert steam installers locally recommend I should just stick with the coil and the oil?

Jamie Hall

"If so many people on here are against the tankless coil, then why do all the expert steam installers locally recommend I should just stick with the coil and the oil?"

Two separate questions. Sticking with oil is simple -- you're set up for it, and you won't recover the cost of switching to gas, even if it cheaper -- which it may not be.

Keeping the coil in the boiler is a little more complicated. If you are not replacing the boiler, and have enough hot water, why change? Also, do you have space for a stand alone water heater or indirect tank? For reasons I find hard to understand, many installers don't like oil fired hot water heaters -- although they work well -- and indeed if you don't have a flue for them they can't be used. Depending on your hot water use, if you have the space you might consider a hybrid heat pump water heater. If you have the space. Tankless hot water heaters are great on saving space, but they require a big natural gas or propane hookup -- or a great deal of electricity.

ChrisJ

I had a tankless coil.
Not only did it barely provide enough water, it kept my basement hot all summer and used a whole lot of oil to do so.

Since you need a new boiler anyway, I'd never consider staying with oil.

That's my opinion now and I made that same decision back in 2011.

random12345

I'm a non-pro homeowner, so I did some more digging to satisfy my own curiosity about a few things, and made a more general post about RI oil vs gas prices if you're interested. For your situation another option might be the gas Burnham Steammax rated for 258 sq ft. which is specifically designed for steam like the Megasteam and has a decent corrosion warranty: https://usboiler.net/product/steammax-gas-fired-boiler. The Weil-Mclain gas EG-35 is also 258 sq ft.

As far as the chimney goes, all I know is that if the flue gas temperature is low enough it could condense at the crown and that acidic condensate can cause damage. I have no idea if this will be a problem for you.

Tankless coil requires that your boiler stay at 180-190 F year-round. It's simple to install and reliable but inefficient. A gas tank water heater only needs to stay at 140 F. You can then shut off the boiler in the summer months. FWIW our oil consumption has not gone down at all when we upgraded to the Megasteam + tankless even though the Megasteam is more efficient and better insulated. Tom Butcher did some interesting studies about this. Here is one of his research papers:

https://bnl.gov/isd/documents/41399.pdf

The energy factor of a gas tank water heater is actually 0.58-0.7 according to Rheem and Bradford-White.

JohnNY

I haven't read through a lot of the posts here but we install tankless coils frequently in NYC. Having a good heat exchanger within a heat exchanger, plus high limit aquastat and pump, allows for isolated functions of space heating and domestic hot water without having to add a second fuel-burning appliance which in many cases an existing chimney cannot safely support. Some say the hot water is free during the space heating months but that's debatable at best. We use cold start and never have a boiler maintain temperature. Having to maintain boiler temperature is a myth. Watch the system run and you'll see why. We always incorporate a storage tank and mixing valve of some kind in this setup. We keep our tanks at around 145°-150° and a 10° drop will kick on the pump, which heats the boiler along with the boiler flame so the condition of prolonged condensing has never presented itself.

Keep in mind, many of the installations we come across were originally steam with tankless coil and so were largely confined to the existing infrastructure to support replacement equipment.

Best to all.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

I have looked at the Burnham Steammax. It seems like they removed the pins at the waterline to help reduce the corrosion. It's a pretty new boiler so hard to tell how they perform over years of use. But yea that boiler is closer to my EDR, too.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

@JohnNY I see on here that you have installed a few Steammax boilers. They seem well made?

JohnNY

Ollie_Hopnoodle said:

@JohnNY I see on here that you have installed a few Steammax boilers. They seem well made?

Yes. The Steam Max seems like a well-made boiler. What I will never get over is the damage that Burnham has done to my company’s reputation in the last 10 years and the fact that I don’t have a reliable contact there anymore. I used to install Burnham exclusively, but my relationship with the company has become very complicated. Today, I would never advise anyone not to use any of their products. I think they had a bad run and a big problem but I believe that is over.

ChrisJ

JohnNY said:

Ollie_Hopnoodle said:

@JohnNY I see on here that you have installed a few Steammax boilers. They seem well made?

Yes. The Steam Max seems like a well-made boiler. What I will never get over is the damage that Burnham has done to my company’s reputation in the last 10 years and the fact that I don’t have a reliable contact there anymore. I used to install Burnham exclusively, but my relationship with the company has become very complicated. Today, I would never advise anyone not to use any of their products. I think they had a bad run and a big problem but I believe that is over.

But didn't the V7's and V8's seem like well made boilers at first as well?