Nat gas steam boiler/ on demand tankless recommendations

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Hi all , I’m looking for some recommendations for a new, natural gas steam boiler. I have 239 sq ft EDR. Im also looking for some recommendations for a tankless nat gas on demand hot water heater (We qualify for a no interest loan and rebate) We have one bath/shower, two faucets, one dishwasher and one washer. Thanks!

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Here are a few that have been recommended in the past. 

Crown Boiler BSI 103 Bermuda
Weil McLain EG-35
Peerless 63-03l but it is rated for 233 sq ft EDR. 

mattmia2

The 233 square ft rating of the boiler has an extra 33% added to it for the piping and measuring of the system is never perfect, if anything it is probably a little bigger than you need.

The Steam Whisperer

I would stay away from the Crown Bermuda. I believe it has the same castings as the Burnham Independence, which are known for early rot out. The Peerless is probably the beefiest and looks right on size wise for your radiation. The Peerless also allows for an easy upgrade to a secondary low water cut off and an indirect fired water heater. I'm not a big fan of tankless units.....lots of consumer grade electronics and other components to fail. Also, it is quite likely you would need to increase the size of your gas service and the gas piping in your home. Since your boiler is quite small ( low capacity) an indirect could be a good option for a long lived water heater with good efficiency. I am leaning towards the Peerless for my own home.

Mad Dog_2

I agree with Dave, but if your really stoked on A Tankless, I've installed well over 100 Rinnais without a single issue.  My two cents  Mad Dog 

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Thanks y’all. I have been looking into the indirect but I recently found out I could get financed and a rebate for the tankless through RI Energy. There’s no incentive for any other water heater this year. I will look into the cost of getting an indirect installed, too. We really don’t use that much water, but sometimes run out when we fill the tub. 

I wasn’t ware that you could put in a boiler that’s smaller than the EDR. It is pretty close tho. I will try to find out if any contractors around me install the Peerless boilers. 

The Steam Whisperer

If you have two pipe steam, you can install a boiler way smaller than the EDR if you modify the system with supply valve orifices.... you just need to meet heat load plus about 10 to 15% extra for piping losses and to help get the system warmed up from a cold start. As someone already stated, that EDR rating includes an extra 33% capacity, so you really are not on the edge. If you have good main venting,low
capacity radiator vents ( on one pipe steam)insulated pipes and a proper boiler installation, you can usually go with a smaller pick up factor than 33%.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Thanks, @The Steam Whisperer I have a one pipe parallel flow system, insulated, with a main vent (Gorton No. 1, 3/4" x 1/2" ) at the end of the dry return. I also have vent rite #1's on all of my radiators.

ethicalpaul

Peerless 63-03L but separate your DHW away from it, you have 1 bathroom. Get a heat pump water heater, 50 gallons or even smaller.

Or OK keep a whole boiler hot every day of the year to heat a few gallons of water per day, it makes no sense.

mattmia2

ethicalpaul said:

Peerless 63-03L but separate your DHW away from it, you have 1 bathroom. Get a heat pump water heater, 50 gallons or even smaller.

Or OK keep a whole boiler hot every day of the year to heat a few gallons of water per day, it makes no sense.

You could use an indirect and size it and set the differential so it doesn't make a dhw call for things like handwashing and minor kitchen uses. I can argue for either. The right indirect will last longer, the heat pump will cost less to operate.

random12345

@Ollie_Hopnoodle Energy in New England is so expensive. As far as I can tell, RI Energy charged $0.2968/kwh starting in October, and in April that went down to $0.22576. For heating oil it's over $4/gal on average, and natural gas is $1.82/therm. I'm in MA and it's even worse for us. Speaking as a non-pro, I'm not sure why you would get either a tankless gas or heat pump water heater? Do you not have space for the tank? With those rates, a gas tank-type water heater should have the lowest total cost of ownership when you factor in the installation, maintenance, and equipment.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

@random12345 the main reason why I am interested in getting info about the tankless on demand is because there is a $600 rebate and 7 year no interest loan that I qualified for from RISE for the tankless on demand ONLY. But I have been talked out of it by a few contractors and community members here. Junky parts that fail and cost a chunk of money to repair.

mattmia2

A good stainless indirect will last a really long time as long as your water chemistry is low enough in chlorides and if you pick right will be as insulated as the ultra insulated electrics.

random12345

I see. When I was looking into getting a gas water heater recently, contractors were worried about not having enough combustion air because of my small boiler room, so they all wanted to either direct vent or use the chimney and make a hole in the side of the house for fresh air intake. The cost for us was significant either way, and we wouldn't have saved much.

dullknife1

I have never met any mechanic that liked to work on an on demand tankless heater. Stick with what your contractor knows best.

JohnNY

dullknife1 said:

I have never met any mechanic that liked to work on an on demand tankless heater. Stick with what your contractor knows best.

Unfortunately, this is true. There are too many brands, each using proprietary parts, and they change every couple of years along with the technology. A boiler, a pump, and a tank is a comforting culmination of simplicity. 

pecmsg

random12345 said:

@Ollie_Hopnoodle Energy in New England is so expensive. As far as I can tell, RI Energy charged $0.2968/kwh starting in October, and in April that went down to $0.22576. For heating oil it's over $4/gal on average, and natural gas is $1.82/therm. I'm in MA and it's even worse for us. Speaking as a non-pro, I'm not sure why you would get either a tankless gas or heat pump water heater? Do you not have space for the tank? With those rates, a gas tank-type water heater should have the lowest total cost of ownership when you factor in the installation, maintenance, and equipment.

Even with those rates a heat pump water heater is the cheapest to operate!

random12345

True. It's hard to say for sure in RI, but looks to me like the higher price of the HP pretty much wipes out whatever operating cost savings you get. And if you have to add a 240v socket even more so. EIA says that a 2 person household in 2015 used 12.5 million btus, a 4 person one used 22.7 million. HPWH has an EF of 3.75-4.07, and a conventional gas tank water heater has an EF of 0.64, would both the 2 and 4 person household be ok with a 40 gallon gas WH? For the HP, two people might be ok with a 50 gallon, but 4 would probably need an 80 gallon right? Seems like for a small household, the HP is hard to justify, but for a bigger household, it might be worth it, though not by a lot. RI is a small state, I think that's what's saving it from seeing huge increases in electric rates. It'll be interesting to see how the relative price of electricity and gas changes in coming years with all the renewables coming online and pipeline constraints into NE.

pecmsg

random12345 said:

True. It's hard to say for sure in RI, but looks to me like the higher price of the HP pretty much wipes out whatever operating cost savings you get. And if you have to add a 240v socket even more so. EIA says that a 2 person household in 2015 used 12.5 million btus, a 4 person one used 22.7 million. HPWH has an EF of 3.75-4.07, and a conventional gas tank water heater has an EF of 0.64, would both the 2 and 4 person household be ok with a 40 gallon gas WH? For the HP, two people might be ok with a 50 gallon, but 4 would probably need an 80 gallon right? Seems like for a small household, the HP is hard to justify, but for a bigger household, it might be worth it, though not by a lot. RI is a small state, I think that's what's saving it from seeing huge increases in electric rates. It'll be interesting to see how the relative price of electricity and gas changes in coming years with all the renewables coming online and pipeline constraints into NE.

That’s today!
my electric rates are up 35 or 45% in 2 or 3 years and will continue to go up.