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Jaded Love

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Paul Pollets
Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,658
edited March 2023 in THE MAIN WALL
I have to remind myself that there's a reason there's a preponderance of poorly installed systems displayed on the Wall. The owners come here for help. It's more concerning that many of the systems were by licensed tradesmen. Proper training and knowledge of controls and correct piping strategies seems in short supply.

I especially appreciate Hot Rod's amazing and relevant advice to fix so many of the ill systems. I wish his knowledge was more plentiful and widespread amongst installers and technicians. Thank you, HR.
CLambAlan (California Radiant) ForbesDJD775Dave CarpentierMad Dog_2HomerJSmith

Comments

  • CLamb
    CLamb Member Posts: 299
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    One other thing which surprises me is that is seems like many of the folks who ask for help here are from Northern New Jersey (or thereabouts). Is that just my false impression?
    Mad Dog_2
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,658
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    There seem to be issues across the country. It's not just from NJ. I do wonder how many get repaired properly...?
    Mad Dog_2mattmia2
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
    edited March 2023
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    Thanks Paul for the shout out. There are trainers throughout the industry on a mission to get and keep the industry trained. It has been and continues to be an uphill battle.

    Canada seem to do a good job with training certification, and developing hydronics codes. The RPA tried for years to do the same.

    The expression, “you can lead a horse to water….” Comes to mind. Those who could benefit most, seem to be the last to get training.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Mad Dog_2
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,961
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    There is a sever shortage of qualified personnel across the industry! 
    I estimate 70+% don’t know, don’t care, are unqualified and or undertrained!
    DJD775Mad Dog_2
  • Dave Carpentier
    Dave Carpentier Member Posts: 604
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    Im just an HO with the hvac stuff, but I did spend time in a different field, nearly 10yrs of that as a foreman. If I could average that with other anecdotal tales from friends, what I noticed over time was -

    Originally - people learned trades by apprenticeship, sometimes long ones.
    Then - an effort to "hurry things up", by offering a variety of 'training' sessions and then shorten up the apprentice time.
    Then - an effort to shorten up the above.

    I suspect this is somewhat common.
    30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
    Currently in building maintenance.
    Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,245
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    My favorite professor from college,
    Aaron William Godrey (RIP) Chairman of the Classical Studies Department at Stony Brook and my Latin professor for 3 years, was ecstatic when I announced that I was NOT going to attend Law School and would return to my true love plumbing and heating;
    "Young Matthew...the world doesn't need ANOTHER Lawyer, it needs good plumbers like you!"   This came from a highly educated man who wound up teaching for close to 60 years at Stony Brook.  He was very well regarded in academia (He also REFUSED tenure early in his career.) And valued education but saw the decline in American kids going in to the trades.  My Well-intentioned HS guidance counselor said:  "You HAVE to go to college!"  But I wanted to work first. Too many suburban and Heartland folks have discouraged and sometimes forbade their children to get their hands dirty in the trades.  Unfortunately, many looked down on us.
    The average American under 35 is so very different from one 40 years before.  Many shun and abhor hard physical labor and farm work, even restaurant work, et cetera.
    This is why mom and pop multi-generational businesses are packing it in after 80 and 100 year successful runs.  Their kids WOULD NOT BE PLUMBERS!  I know of two that are  trying to sell because none of the sons, daughters or son in laws
    Will take it over....shame.  Even today's young plumbers that I have seen are not what we were.  We did whatever was asked, went in to dirty crawl spaces, cleaned sewers, got Filthy changing out an oil boiler,  worked around the clock...Friday's and Saturday Nights sometimes.  They are provided all the best PPE that we never had and they still won't get down and dirty.  The prospects are very grim.  I have tried to bring over 25 young men in to the business in almost 40 yrs...2 Stuck it out.  Then "they"
    Tell you the migrants will do it!.  First, many are not legal and second, and I have seen many times, they'll stay with a construction company for 3 or 4 years, learn just enough to get by and go out on their own...no license,  insurance, green card. Their work is about 65-70%.  Looks good from a distance, but when u get close.....My own brother hired one to do his pond...looked very nice...waterfall leaked all over...WE.DONT NEED NO STINKIN LINER!! yup...Seen  do it with a Second story deck that heaved with 10 people on it.  Saw a retaining wall collapse by these guys.  Then "they" tell us with the total lack of upcoming plumbers, we will make a fortune.   Still working on that....Ill try till the end to recruit, but its alarming.  Last, I'm generally despise govt mandates, but plumbing & Heating techs need mandatory continuing Ed on proper.and safe installation..  Mad Dog
    GrallertCLamb
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
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    here is a group of students I took on a tour of AHR in Vegas last year. They will graduate high school with a HVAC degree.
    Every one told me they enjoy working on mechanical components and see $$ in the mechanical trades. 
    manufacturers stepped up and donated thousands of dollars of tools and gear, like Veto Bag shown here, the inventor in the center, gave a powerful speech working his way up as a labor, carpenter  and wood boatbuilder before starting Veto

    We had two groups, two gals in the other group. 
    It becomes pretty clear who is willing to work in our industry, and what group, the ones driving Beemers  to school, wants to be gamers and reality stars, hoping to stay members of the lucky sperm club, born into💰
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,245
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    Looks like the makings a good front line for my Football team! Ha ha.  Young, hungry, ready to learn.  I wish them the best!   Besides the occasional Career Night at certain Highschools, the only organization I know of on Long Island that aggressively & actively recruits on an ongoing basis is Nassau PHCC (a member) and ME!(TO WHOMEVER WILL LISTEN AND AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY....HA HA.  Mad 🐕 Dog
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,696
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    The education system today is big business, driven by special interests that don't necessarily (ever?) line up with our children's best interest. It's a study in the differences between training & teaching, indoctrination & learning.
    Mad Dog_2
  • Dave Carpentier
    Dave Carpentier Member Posts: 604
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    Students (some of them) willing to work is one thing.
    Swag and mini-courses is another thing.
    Proper apprenticeships and trade schools ??
    Is that still a thing, or is it too costly.. just let em hack it out in the field ?
    30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
    Currently in building maintenance.
    Mad Dog_2
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,839
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    They shut down the trade classes in the hih schools' years ago.

    Back in the day kids grew up and took their bicycle apart, then they graduated to lawn mowers and then to cars.

    You can't fix anything with video games.

    Society has been taught that the trades are for people who can't cut it in college, and that trades people are dumb. Plumbers but crack jokes etc.

    The pendulum will swing back someday.
    DJD775CLambMad Dog_2BenDplumber
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,114
    edited March 2023
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    The reason there so many poorly piped steam and hot water systems is two fold . The amazing flipping market and the garbage that gets done in the name of flipping. The fact that most don’t do the research and think that there s no difference between price except one company must be charging to much . Everyone goes on the internet and looks equipment prices and believe the prices suggested Installation prices that are on the internet . Plus most really see no value and just are price shopping for the lowest price best deal . They all figure that the installer is doing the right thing . Even if you do the Apple to apples they still see no value . New Jersey is full of a lot of competition and the lowest price usually always wins ,so usually all the nightmare steam system pics u see and hear about where installed cheaply . Every body kinda forgets this type of work is usually not done by altar and choir boys and the feint of heart ,it’s done by men not boys and men don’t work for peanuts .New Jersey home of poorly installed steam boiler mainly chosen strictly by price . Nothing is cheap in Jersey property taxes and cost of living so why should a properly install system cost so much ? Another thing I see is and hear is we are moving or we just moved in and the inspector said it was fine . All of my work is either w other contractors , supply house guys ,referrals and everything else is word of mouth . I could waste all the time looking at stuff and get 1 outta 50 so I tell them I charge to look and provide a estimate and that usually ends the conversion because everybody else estimates are free and free is king . New Jersey the penny wise dollar foolish steam boiler replacement state which includes Kleenex w every steam install to soak up the tears
    The sweeting of a cheapened price is soon forgotten by the bitterness of poor quality
    Peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
    Mad Dog_2BenDplumber
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,245
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    So eloquent Clamster. I disagree Dave, Apprenticeships and trade schools are still VERY important and the trade schools, although not great or many of them around, it atleast a base of training to build on. But, yes, true experience is built on the job, installing and troubleshooting. Mad Dog
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
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    Mad Dog_2 said:
    So eloquent Clamster. I disagree Dave, Apprenticeships and trade schools are still VERY important and the trade schools, although not great or many of them around, it atleast a base of training to build on. But, yes, true experience is built on the job, installing and troubleshooting. Mad Dog
    In any trade it is important to have the “book smarts” and the on the job apprenticeship 

    Tough to install a hydronic system without load calcs pipe and pump sizing math. The more your read, study and train, the better your skill set
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,245
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    Yup.. I've been reading since '86 when I entered full time, and never stopped..Mostly associated and directly with the same author....hmmm..whom would that be????????? Dan!!!! Mad Dog
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,389
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    Hmmm, @Mad Dog_2 , Are you talking about the same Dan who has had such a big, beneficial impact on so many of our lives? Same one with the big heart who has for the better, changed the course of an entire industry? That Dan?💖

    Yours, Larry
  • lager
    lager Member Posts: 56
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    Hot Rod
    " you can lead a horse to water ,,,,,pencil must be lead."