Speaking of safe chimneys...

JohnNY

Is this good? A 400,000 BTU boiler vents into this.
Very hard to capture between two buildings but it's a single wall flue run on the exterior of the building. Flue gases condense immediately and pour out the bottom at every cycle. It's also got huge holes in it from base to cap, through which most of the flue gases escape before they reach the top of the run. The guy won't change it because "My carbon dioxide detectors never go off".

I can't. I just can't.

Jamie Hall

You do hit some winners, don't you!

Steamhead

Run, don't walk! If you haven't already, that is. This job will be nothing but trouble.

JohnNY

Steamhead said:

Run, don't walk! If you haven't already, that is. This job will be nothing but trouble.

You've lost your sense of adventure, Steamhead.

Steamhead

JohnNY said:

Steamhead said:

Run, don't walk! If you haven't already, that is. This job will be nothing but trouble.

You've lost your sense of adventure, Steamhead.

If they won't spend the money to do the job right, I'm not getting involved. Lawyers are way too expensive.

Larry Weingarten

From the web: What is an adrenaline junkie?

An “adrenaline junkie” is a person who enjoys taking part in activities that trigger the release of epinephrine, which is commonly known as an adrenaline rush. They will often enjoy partaking in thrilling, exciting, or intense activities.
AKA

Yours, Larry

JimP

That looks like a single wall pipe. Do you think it would

JimP

Do you think it would work better if it was D Vent?

mattmia2

I'm sure there is both a building official and a utility that would be more than happy to shut that down until it is fixed.

ChrisJ

I swear I've seen you post this before and I said "Looks good from my house!".

Am I losing my mind?

JohnNY

ChrisJ said:

I swear I've seen you post this before and I said "Looks good from my house!".

Am I losing my mind?

You're correct!

I told this client last year that we weren't going to work on the boiler anymore until he had a functional chimney installed. I can't put my guys in the mechanical room with this boiler running. It's below ground and has no active ventilation. I went back in there this week because he asked me to check his Heat-Timer settings. No change was made to the flue.

@mattmia2 That's always a tough call, isn't it. Do I want to advise the client and take them at their word that they'll take corrective measures or do I want to jam them up mercilessly with the NYC Dept of Buildings? It's a case-by-case thing. This guy will fix this but first I have to jump up and down. Keep in mind this is a West Village 4-story townhouse.
Here's a clip from the Zillow listing:

KC_Jones

Wait...hold on...I need to clarify.

What's in the picture is on a house that's estimated to be worth over 7 million dollars?

RayWohlfarth

wow that's really scary

ethicalpaul

KC_Jones said:

Wait...hold on...I need to clarify.

What's in the picture is on a house that's estimated to be worth over 7 million dollars?

You think there's any money to re-do a chimney after that mortgage payment?

ChrisJ

I assumed it was the back of an industrial building

ScottSecor

@JohnNY we have some similar customers, thankfully not too many. Amazing what they will and won't spend money on.

I find it odd that they think nothing of dropping big money on that antique couch that no one will ever sit on, or that high end kitchen that gets used a few times a year. But when it comes to that old (essential) heating system in the basement/dungeon, as long as it heats the space - leave it alone!

Long Beach Ed

Only in New York will a guy live in squalid conditions but drive a $180,000 car.

mattmia2

Long Beach Ed said:

Only in New York will a guy live in squalid conditions but drive a $180,000 car.

Because the squalid conditions still cost more than the car.

STEAM DOCTOR

Got to love this one. Customer is having work done on his house. Nothing to do with me. In the course of conversation he mentioned that they had extended the roof up. Turns out the contractor had raised the roof about two feet and now the top of chimney was actually inside the structure. I was there to get the boiler up and running. I told him no way no how. Chimney terminates inside the house. He told me he would have the contractor extend. They sent me this picture of the extension. Still no way and still no how. Wild stuff out there.

KC_Jones

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Got to love this one. Customer is having work done on his house. Nothing to do with me. In the course of conversation he mentioned that they had extended the roof up. Turns out the contractor had raised the roof about two feet and now the top of chimney was actually inside the structure. I was there to get the boiler up and running. I told him no way no how. Chimney terminates inside the house. He told me he would have the contractor extend. They sent me this picture of the extension. Still no way and still no how. Wild stuff out there.

So they had no inspections obviously. The homeowner may need to contact and attorney, I'd also be contacting the local AHJ to see what they have to say.

That's absolutely insane.

Long Beach Ed

Nice new chimney, but where's the Karnak flashing cement?

Long Beach Ed

@JohnNY That's what Karnak is for. Patch those holes. Good for the sand holes in those Chinese gas fittings too!
And do somethin' about that leak in the bottom. A drain in that bucket maybe.

mattmia2

roll roofing, a sign of the highest quality job...

mattmia2

Long Beach Ed said:

Nice new chimney, but where's the Karnak flashing cement?

is that the new york equivalent of dewitt's?

JohnNY

KC_Jones said:

Wait...hold on...I need to clarify.

What's in the picture is on a house that's estimated to be worth over 7 million dollars?

Yes. Single family homes in this neighborhood start at around 6 million. And they're all attached, with 500-800 square feet of back yard space. The house across the street is 5 stories and about 8 feet wider than this one. It just sold for 31 million.
It's the house that put my company on the map in Manhattan around 1998 after the new owners (you know the name but I'm still bound by an NDA) were unable heat it after living in it for two years and a parade of HVAC/Plumbers failed to make it work. I saw what was wrong with it, gave them a proposal, and fixed it in 5 days. I become the "it" boy for architects and engineers all over the city and nearly every house on this block become a steady client. I could write a book about what I've seen in this city over the years.

EdTheHeaterMan

The summer home I lived in for years (Flat Roof) needed a new roof and the Contractor (my brother-in-law) sold my father a new asphalt shingle pitched roof that created a 12 foot high attic space. Soon after construction was completed the insulators were in the attic getting sick. That is the week my brother-in-law learned that you can't vent oil burner fumes into a work space. But he is a well respected builder in the community. Of course I was tasked with the vacuum cleaning on the oil boiler the following weekend. We had an indirect for DHW.

The house is no longer standing, But I still have the 8"x8"x 12' stainless steel chimney extension in the back yard that my brother-in-law came up with to resolve the problem.

HVACNUT

If the chimney is the pig, then the black paint must be the lipstick. 
Also the crimps on the vertical pipe are pointing down. I guess it's to be expected. 

Bob Harper

Ask him if his CO alarms ever alert. You can't fix stupid. An NDA is not slavery. You still have an obligation to mankind. I'd send certified letters return receipt to him, the gas utility, building department and fire marshal. Let him sue. He'll get cremated in court. He's endangering anyone who enters that building, attached neighbors and anyone who might have cause to stand outside. The IRC states these concerned people include building officials who enter to inspect, cops, fire, EMS, the plumber, etc. He is knowingly endangering you. You probably have legal recourse against him. He's a public hazard. I would do all this then walk away.

Long Beach Ed

Bob Harper said:

Ask him if his CO alarms ever alert. You can't fix stupid. An NDA is not slavery. You still have an obligation to mankind. I'd send certified letters return receipt to him, the gas utility, building department and fire marshal. Let him sue. He'll get cremated in court. He's endangering anyone who enters that building, attached neighbors and anyone who might have cause to stand outside. The IRC states these concerned people include building officials who enter to inspect, cops, fire, EMS, the plumber, etc. He is knowingly endangering you. You probably have legal recourse against him. He's a public hazard. I would do all this then walk away.

You'd do this to anyone with an unlined chimney?

HVACNUT

Long Beach Ed said:

You'd do this to anyone with an unlined chimney?

I didn't see that part. For this specific chimney I think @Bob Harper makes some valid points. The owner should be embarrassed with himself. 

Bob Harper

There is no justification for an unlined chimney in use. An owner's options are to line it or decomission it. Period. No amount of mumbo-jumbo from a mfr, code inspector, etc. can soften or remove that burden. The case in point has been reported with active venting failure. This is a direct hazard to people. Therefore, there is a burden to alert the authorities since the owner has clearly indicated his indifference to the welfare of others. This move protects the public as well as the contractor. Also, the contractor should not touch the system, not attempt to service it but walk away. To work on it implies consent and approval.
Now, what about an unlined chimney you encounter? Is it a hazard to the public? Yes. Is it a hazard specifically identified in the code that must be corrected? Yes. Is it a liability to any contractor who works on it or any attached equipment? Yes. Is it an impediment to the sale or transfer of the property? Yes.
Someone please explain the justification for not relining a chimney that has been deemed unsafe by the evidence uncovered during an NFPA 211 level II inspection. Bueler?

If the flue is undersized to where a properly sized liner cannot be installed into the chimney then that chimney cannot be used for the intended equipment. Contractors stuff anything they want into chimneys and try to will it up the stack. No. When you approach a chimney vented installation, your first question should be, "can this chimney adequately exhaust and contain the flue gases?" If unlined or the liner has failed, can you get the proper sized liner in? If not, either reduce the input rate/ size of equipment, or use alternatives such as power venting.

If a customer balks at these measures, you should clearly state the hazard, the consequences for failure to mitigate or correct and the sequelae for those issues. For instance: a chimney is unlined. You state an unlined chimney does not comply with code and is, therefore, a hazard that must be corrected. Failure to correct it may result in venting failure, carbon monoxide exposure, respiratory irritants and aerosols being inhaled, erosion and destruction of the chimney, weak draft, poor combustion and reduced efficiency. These can result in death, health issues, fire, chimney collapse, collateral building damage and increased costs to operate.

Unfortunately, that is the level you must notify someone of hazards or else it could be construed as a 'failure to warn'. This is the hottest legal concept in tort law because it plays on sentiment and not just empirical facts. You knew there was a hazard yet neglected to inform the owner in writing. You become the bad guy. When you find an unlined flue, I would give a complete written warning having them sign and date receipt of a copy. If they refuse to sign, they get a certified letter return receipt. If I observe blatantly hazardous conditions, such as my personal CO alarm alerting yet they blow it off, certified letter. If they thank me and ask for a quote, no certified letter. If I give them a quote and the express their derision and scoff at the hazard, certified letters to everyone.

You do what you want. I do consulting in such cases. I provided litigation support to a major mfr. for years working daily with corporate attorneys, insurance companies, fire investigators, code officials, etc. I also sit on the NFPA 211 cmte. and the UL Standards Technical Panels 103 for venting and 127 for hearth appliances so I'm familiar with the code process. I suggest these strong measures not to be a hard-****. I suggest them based upon actual cases. We teach this extensively in the hearth industry. We have whole courses on how to diagnose and document conditions, report writing, and solutions. Maybe some Wet Heads should consider delving into it a little more.

Long Beach Ed

Thank you, Bob Harper for sharing this. Your experience and insight is valued here.

Mad Dog_2

When in doubt...lock em out. If there is ANY chance people will die, I will do the right thing for all humans. I'd never forgive myself if I didn't. Its a black and white issue to me when it comes to Life Safety. Good catch Johnny.   Mad Dog 

BobC

Sometimes the ones with the most money squeak the loudest.

Bob

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

When in doubt...lock em out. If there is ANY chance people will die, I will do the right thing for all humans. I'd never forgive myself if I didn't. Its a black and white issue to me when it comes to Life Safety. Good catch Johnny.   Mad Dog 

I have to admit judging by the quality of work I've seen from many contractors, including in my own house I have a problem with this.

Is it wrong in the situation being discussed?  Probably not but I can see it being wrong in many situations.  It also comes across as "pay me or you suffer"


I think how @JohnNY handled it was great.