Hydrolevel VXT

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

Although I am not pleased with much of the rest of your posts, @Jells , you do have a good point in one: who would want a surge protector on their boiler? And the answer to that is -- everyone should with modern boilers. There are very few devices built and available today which can withstand even a relatively modest overvoltage spike, if it happens at just the wrong moment, particularly if it happens on the neutral rather than the hot. That's a sad fact of life. That it doesn't happen more often speaks volumes about the stability of our electrical grid That it happens at all speaks volumes about the stress that grid is under. That said, most modern equipment will withstand the ordinary spikes on the grid. Should they be designed and built in all cases with surge suppression built in? Perhaps -- but that raises an interesting design problem: how big a spike? How much energy? What peak voltage? Plus an interesting maintenance problem for the homeowner: most suppressors are basically one shot devices, unless they are flat out power conditioners (which don't come cheap, nor are they small -- you're looking at a big transformer, a couple of big inductors and a couple of big capacitors, at least), and I venture that most homeowners aren't going to be going to the basement or wherever from time to time to see if their surge suppressor is still functional.

All that said, it is also worth remembering that surges can be local, as well as grid induced, and the latter tend to be more lethal to other equipment connected on the same drop. This is because while they tend to have less total energy, they also tend to have much higher peak voltages. The user, however, can guard against those by making sure that they do not have equipment which can cause surges, or that it is operated and controlled in such a way as to minimize them.

In the VXT's case, how big of a spike etc is irrelevant.

You install 1 or more MOV's and a fuse. If the spike is big enough it pops the fuse but the equipment remains protected. You're talking $1+- in parts under mass production.

I just looked and honestly I'm amazed the VXT doesn't have any MOV's on the board. I guess I need to consider adding a few to my LWCO.

I don't know, I guess they have their reasons. Maybe it increases the chances of downtime and that outweighs the protection in the real world.

Jells

Back to my bad VXT, should I try and replace the capacitor discussed above? Seems like I have nothing to lose. I reinstalled just the valve so manual filling works, and have the rest of the unit in my workshop.

109A_5

Hello @Jells,
I can't guarantee that Capacitor will repair your unit, but if you feel ambitious, they are not expensive.
One example of a replacement Capacitor, there are many.
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/kemet/C420C104K5R5TA7200/818266

Mad Dog_2

I built my Steam Vapor System from scratch starting in 2001.  One 1/2" Apollo Ball Valve.  No water feeder.  I understand in a commercial situation, but the whole reason for a VXT is to track feed water usage, right?  Find and fix the leaks and you can go with several Mc Donnell Miller Models that are very trouble free.  I don't know why MM doesn't have a metering model to compete with the VXT?.  Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

I built my Steam Vapor System from scratch starting in 2001.  One 1/2" Apollo Ball Valve.  No water feeder.  I understand in a commercial situation, but the whole reason for a VXT is to track feed water usage, right?  Find and fix the leaks and you can go with several Mc Donnell Miller Models that are very trouble free.  I don't know why MM doesn't have a metering model to compete with the VXT?.  Mad Dog 🐕 

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Hydrolevel-45-130-WM-1-General-Purpose-Heavy-Duty-Water-Meter-w-3-4-Adapters-0-5-to-35-GPM

Jells

Mad Dog_2 said:

I built my Steam Vapor System from scratch starting in 2001. One 1/2" Apollo Ball Valve. No water feeder. I understand in a commercial situation, but the whole reason for a VXT is to track feed water usage, right? Find and fix the leaks and you can go with several Mc Donnell Miller Models that are very trouble free. I don't know why MM doesn't have a metering model to compete with the VXT?. Mad Dog 🐕

I'll say it again, this is a residential multifamily where I do not live. I can't be there checking the level 3x a week!

Holy crap I'm ready to tear my hair out, or tear out this freaking system. It's not just the VXT. Jstar did me a pretty bad turn installing this boiler then vanishing, leaving me a Carlin EZGasPro burner no one knows how to service! The guy doing my work now had to drag a codger out of retirement to get the damn thing to combust properly. That was mid March, and now it won't fire up at all. If I tore it out and replaced it with a standard gas boiler at least my regular plumbing and heating guy could work on it if it was something beyond my skills. I run 10 heating systems and this one has taken over my life. /rant

Jamie Hall

Frankly, if I were a tradesperson, I'd avoid this job like the plague...

Jells

Jamie Hall said:

Frankly, if I were a tradesperson, I'd avoid this job like the plague...

Because of the "difficult customer" who actually knows enough to know when a "pro" is full of it?

ChrisJ

Jells said:

Frankly, if I were a tradesperson, I'd avoid this job like the plague...

Because of the "difficult customer" who actually knows enough to know when a "pro" is full of it?

If that's the case why did you go with jstar?

I'll tell you why.  He wasn't full of it and he did excellent work for very good prices.


You say he did you bad?
He had stuff going on that caused him to sell his company.  But yes I'm sure he should've considered you before doing all of that.  


I don't think it's his fault you can't find someone to work on a known reputable brand of boiler and burner.

Jamie Hall

Jells said:

Jamie Hall said:

Frankly, if I were a tradesperson, I'd avoid this job like the plague...

Because of the "difficult customer" who actually knows enough to know when a "pro" is full of it?

Basically, yes. I would write a more detailed response, but this is not the place for it.

Jells

ChrisJ said:

Jells said:

Frankly, if I were a tradesperson, I'd avoid this job like the plague...

Because of the "difficult customer" who actually knows enough to know when a "pro" is full of it?

If that's the case why did you go with jstar?

I'll tell you why. He wasn't full of it and he did excellent work for very good prices.


You say he did you bad?
He had stuff going on that caused him to sell his company. But yes I'm sure he should've considered you before doing all of that.


I don't think it's his fault you can't find someone to work on a known reputable brand of boiler and burner.






I'm certain Jstar did not intend to leave me high and dry, but what he did was sell me the equivalent of a European car no one knows how to work on. My regular plumbing and heating guy doesn't. The one guy Carlin recommends in my area decided it wasn't the combustion, it was that the returns needed replacement. When I politely requested a combustion test on the sooty boiler before greenlighting that work, he ghosted me. The tech that Captainco (what a great guy!) had trained and referred me to was able to test the combustion and tell me the CO level was an immediate life hazard to my tenants, but he had no idea how to adjust the fuel/air mix. Another older heat man who claimed to have installed hundreds of steam boilers said to rip out the 10 year old unit, it was toast and unfixable. My current guy, a steam pro and Strictly Steam member, was not able to fix it and had to drag a retired tech to my place to do the required work. Successfully, thank God! He dialed in the mixture and got the number optimal. Does that all sound like it's my fault I can't find someone to work on "a known reputable brand of boiler and burner."?

Jamie Hall

Permit me to say that it sounds as though you have a somewhat unusual arrangement, which may indeed be difficult to work on. However, throwing people under the bus (you got five in one paragraph, possibly a record) really doesn't work as well as diplomacy and patience.

Jells

Jamie Hall said:

Permit me to say that it sounds as though you have a somewhat unusual arrangement, which may indeed be difficult to work on. However, throwing people under the bus (you got five in one paragraph, possibly a record) really doesn't work as well as diplomacy and patience.

I did not name anyone but Jstar, and were he still around I suspect I would have a working boiler and not be ranting here. I simply told my story, after suggestions that the problem was me. Are you really not as appalled as me that a pro would walk away from a dangerous CO spewing boiler?

It's not an unusual configuration for an EZ gas Pro. Just the burner on a Smith boiler. Both installed new in 2012 by Jstar. If Carlin can only recommend one tech in an area like North Jersey with like 5 million people, doesn't that sound like a problem? Would you buy a car for which there's only one recommended mechanic in your state?

Mad Dog_2

Carlin's are not exotic in ANY way...Made in USA 🇺🇸 too!  Riellos can be much more finicky to set up but a great burner..Made in It'ly. That's your European Analogy NOT a Carlin.  J Star was a good guy from what I remember.  I'm certain he gave you the best that he could at the time.  

I know it's frustrating when you can't find someone in your territory.  Sounds like you are in Jersey. Who you need is the Great Clammy, Robert Calmbacher (On find a contractor). He's seen it all, done it all and is Master of all the issues you have.  The Questions I have for you:
1) Will you listen to his advice?
2) Pay him what he deserves? 
3) Will you listen to his advice?

My two cents.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Jells

Thanks @Mad Dog_2 but you're not going to convince me that this Carlin is a good idea. I manage 4 hydronic boilers, one for 26 years on the other three for 19. In that time, on the flame side I've had to replace one gas valve and one thermocouple. That's it. The Carlin has been making my tenants cold and me miserable now for over 3 years!

Interestingly, to bring it all around, Carlin and Hydrolevel are made by the same company. Hmmm.

Jells

Unbelievable. So I finally got the VXT on the bench after getting replacement capacitors. I clip out the old, solder in the new (carefully, like I learned in 11th grade electronics class) and fire it up with a voltmeter on the solenoid connectors. I press the manual fill button.....nothing. Crap. Check everything....nothing. On a whim, I test the continuity of the manual button...NOTHING! The damn switch is bad! Test lead shorting the switch connectors and the relay clicks and the volts go high.

What crap! These switches are usually designed for >100k operations, not the few that it got in 2 years of service on a boiler. It never occurred to me to test it. Now I'm trying to remember from the spring if it was really failing to fill on auto, or it was just low, and when the manual fill failed I just assumed it was failing all around. Now I gotta see where I can source a momentary switch without paying $15 in shipping for a $3 part. I miss Radio Shack.

BobC

The last 8 years of my working life were slent repairing mal sorting machines for the post office. Some of some of these are over 100ft long, loaded with computers and can easily have 100 motors and all it takes to control them.

The machines had estop circuits so you could stop a machine from almost anywhere buy just hitting an estop button, there were switches on hoods and covers so if you opened one the machine would stop. The problem is these switches had multiple poles to signal what was open and were built to a price point. Combine an iffy contact design with loads and loads opf paper dust and tou have a great environment for flaky switch contacts.

They had reporting contacts that were supposed to tell you what was open but because these error messeges came from a different set of contacts than the ones that actually stopped the machine you could not rely on them. You could spend hours running down a flaky switch contact.

It would have been different=t had they used sealed switch contacts or monitored the actual switch contact that could stio the machine. Of course that might have led to fewer guys fixing the machines and I could have been out of a job. The pay was not great but the benefits were and when your getting close to retrement sometimes the benefits are worth more than the money

SteamingatMohawk

@ChrisJ From my conversations with you over the years, I am surprised you don't have a cot and sleeping bag next to the boiler...kinda like sleeping with your brand new baseball glove under your pillow!

Obviously, just kidding. I hope all is well with you and yours.

ChrisJ

SteamingatMohawk said:

@ChrisJ From my conversations with you over the years, I am surprised you don't have a cot and sleeping bag next to the boiler...kinda like sleeping with your brand new baseball glove under your pillow!

Obviously, just kidding. I hope all is well with you and yours.

I did fall asleep while skimming one time many years ago late at night, like around midnight. But I don't think that counts.

Jells

I figured I'd post here rather than start another VXT thread. So I got my VXT apparently working, it will fill when you push the button, but apparently not when the LWCO calls for water. Thankfully the Nest alerted me to a disparity between the setpoint androm temp so I got there before a tenant complained.

Any suggestions on diagnosing this? Is the signal current just 110V so that a simple jumper from the hot lead to the VXT signal terminal should cause the valve to open?

109A_5

Hello @Jells,
Although it seems like they don't come right out and state it, by looking at the wiring diagrams it looks like if the Hot terminal is connected to the Feed terminal that triggers the VXT-120.

https://hydrolevel.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/VXT-120-Instructions-web-0321.pdf

Jamie Hall

Check the voltage!!!! There is the -120, but there is also the -24!

109A_5

Hello @Jells,
@Jamie Hall is correct there are two models, VXT-24 and the VXT-120.

Jells said:

Is the signal current just 110V so that a simple jumper from the hot lead to the VXT signal terminal should cause the valve to open?

I assume you are referring to the VXT-120, you should check to be sure, as @Jamie Hall points out.

Jells

Jamie Hall said:

Check the voltage!!!! There is the -120, but there is also the -24!

Yes, mine is a 120v, but either way if a jumper works, a jumper works right?

Jamie Hall

If you are genuinely positive that you are actually just jumping a dry contact, yes. A jumper will work. Check for voltage on all the terminals -- including the one you are jumping -- first. And remember that coming in contact with 24 VAC from a little transformer is just annoying. Coming in contact with 120 VAC mains power is... more interesting.

Jells

So I jumped the hot to the signal terminal: nothing. The manual button and the display work fine. I assume this means the autofill feature of the VXT is dead, right?

Steamhead

Jells said:

So I jumped the hot to the signal terminal: nothing. The manual button and the display work fine. I assume this means the autofill feature of the VXT is dead, right?

What delay is the VXT set for? Did you wait that long? Watch the display, when there is a call for water, a dot should appear in the lower right.

Jells

Steamhead said:

Jells said:

So I jumped the hot to the signal terminal: nothing. The manual button and the display work fine. I assume this means the autofill feature of the VXT is dead, right?

What delay is the VXT set for? Did you wait that long? Watch the display, when there is a call for water, a dot should appear in the lower right.

Ah, thanks! I totally forgot the delay feature! It's set for the max, 10 min (I actually took a photo of the dip switches), I didn't set that, probably one of the techs who serviced it did. I'll change it to 30 sec and test again. But the fact that it didn't fill when the LWCO locked out the boiler isn't a good sign.