Hydrolevel VXT

gerry gill

Has anyone else had recent bad issues with VXT feeders clocking but not feeding? I've had so many bad VXT recalls lately, that we as a company now refuse to use them. This seems to be a problem with recent vintage product, not the older stuff.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Not sure but you may want to talk with @Gordo he has a lot of you tube videos on them.

Long Beach Ed

Not another product with the Chinese flu?

ChrisJ

@Jells

Mad Dog_2

I always liked the gpm counter but still NOT a fan of automatic feeders...none of them. In Commercial apps and for elderly folks yiu don't have much choice. Mad Dog

Jells

ChrisJ said:

@Jells

Thanks Chris

JohnNY

We had two recently with the solenoid installed upside down. We called Hydrolevel who knew what the problem was immediately. We flipped the coils over and remounted them. Annoying, but good to go.

Mad Dog_2

From Factory,  John?  I installed a Large Burnham atmospheric Gas Steamer IN 12 for a Very Well known Politician on the National stage. He's still on TV quite often.  ...All done and we wired up, won't fire..Broke out the meter and isolated to the brown push in relay.  Had a spare in my no-heat box.  Swapped it. Nothing...studied the wiring diagram but was exhausted.. was cold out and the VIP kept asking how long?  I needed to get the man's heat back on.  Had to call in my lifeline..excellent electrican who is great w controls. Took him over an hours till HE got it!  It was wired wrong from the Factory on the push in relay.  He charges big bucks and gives no breaks...$500 cash for 2 hours work.  Oh well.."THAT'S  WHERE THE $$$$ WENT!!"
ELLEN!!! (🔥 Hotrod & Dan  will get that!) Mad Dog

Gordo

@gerry gill : We had one VXT we installed a few months ago that failed right out of the box just as you described.
We sent it to Hydrolevel for testing and they found that capacitor #7 (marked C7 on the the board and smaller than a match-head) had failed.
They sent us a new one.
We now electrically test all of our units prior to going in the field.
Have you sent any of your failed units to Hydrolevel?

Gordo

@JohnNY : Re: those upside down solenoids you unfortunately ran into, where they on the newer "reversible" style VXTs by any chance?

New England SteamWorks

We install quite a few of these and haven't had a problem that we are aware of....

You do have to be careful with the new reversible ones. We did have a guy mount one upside down, that doesn't work very well!

ChrisJ

Gordo said:

@gerry gill : We had one VXT we installed a few months ago that failed right out of the box just as you described.
We sent it to Hydrolevel for testing and they found that capacitor #7 (marked C7 on the the board and smaller than a match-head) had failed.
They sent us a new one.
We now electrically test all of our units prior to going in the field.
Have you sent any of your failed units to Hydrolevel?

A surface mount capacitor was likely either a ceramic or a tantalum.
Ceramics are more likely as they're cheap and extremely reliable and long lasting. Tantalums are very expensive and can be moody but are a necessary evil. @mattmia2 Did I describe it well?

gerry gill

Gordo said:

@gerry gill : We had one VXT we installed a few months ago that failed right out of the box just as you described. We sent it to Hydrolevel for testing and they found that capacitor #7 (marked C7 on the the board and smaller than a match-head) had failed. They sent us a new one. We now electrically test all of our units prior to going in the field. Have you sent any of your failed units to Hydrolevel?

Hi Gordo. No I haven't sent any back to hydro level because I was too mad at them. I sent them to the round file instead. I will no longer give them any of my money

Gordo

@gerry gill : I guess we dodged the problems you had because our stock is a bit dated.
I will buy up used VXTs from the surplus market and rebuild the valves for fun.
The ones marked on the listings as "broken, for parts only" are the most interesting.

I gather that you put several in, they tested ok when installed, but then went catatonic sometime later?
That $*cks.

Jells

@Gordo That was my experience recently, one that's been in for 2 years suddenly failed. Seems like the electronics.

109A_5

ChrisJ said:

Gordo said:

@gerry gill : We had one VXT we installed a few months ago that failed right out of the box just as you described.
We sent it to Hydrolevel for testing and they found that capacitor #7 (marked C7 on the the board and smaller than a match-head) had failed.
They sent us a new one.
We now electrically test all of our units prior to going in the field.
Have you sent any of your failed units to Hydrolevel?

A surface mount capacitor was likely either a ceramic or a tantalum.
Ceramics are more likely as they're cheap and extremely reliable and long lasting. Tantalums are very expensive and can be moody but are a necessary evil. @mattmia2 Did I describe it well?

C7 in this VXT version pictured is not a surface mount type, it does look like a ceramic type, the value appears to be a 104 or 0.1 microfarad. The part is less than a dollar. Easy to replace with the proper tools and skills.

Gordo

I recently had one that was installed by "others" sometime in 2011.
It was wired such that it did not get power unless the t-stat was calling.
It was wired to trigger via a M&M #67.
The float started getting stuck in the down position and flooded the system every week because the LOC- out feature kept getting cleared every time the t-stat cycled.
Finally got it straightened out and working ok when at the last moment I accidentally arced 24 volts to ground fooling around with the spill switch (please don't ask).
Checked the VXT, & it was still lit, but had gone catatonic, and refused to feed with the manual switch, and did not even acknowledge the trigger to feed.
I disconnected the VXT, and went back about a week later after getting another OEM part for the boiler, and to swap out the VXT electronics.
I got the board on my healing bench, tested it again before sending it to Hydrolevel, and... it was perfectly
fine.
They still want the board.
Heck, I even tried arcing the leads (my bench transformer has a build-in 3 amp breaker), but I could not get the board to fail again.
Not long ago, I wired a VXT-24 to 120 volts just to see if I could destroy a VXT board.
It burned out the two 3 watt 150 ohm resistors, of course, and when I replaced them, the rest of the board still worked.
I sent that board to Hydrolevel, and they confirmed the results.

109A_5

Hello @Gordo,

Gordo said:

Finally got it straightened out and working ok when at the last moment I accidentally arced 24 volts to ground fooling around with the spill switch (please don't ask).
Checked the VXT, & it was still lit, but had gone catatonic, and refused to feed with the manual switch, and did not even acknowledge the trigger to feed.

You may not remember, did you then power down the VXT wait about 30 seconds and power up and retest it ? Since the VXT is a microcontroller based device the arced 24 volts incident may have just glitched the microcontroller and a clean power up may have cleared the malfunction.

Gordo

@109A_5: No doubt you are right.
Even so, I was not sorry to replace the board, since the customer also reported flashing numbers, & high numbers, maybe explainable due to the non-optimal hook-up, but didn't want to chance it possibly glitching out again.

Gordo

@Jells: Did you happen to save that VXT that failed after only 2 years?

109A_5

Hello @Gordo,

Gordo said:

@109A_5: No doubt you are right.
Even so, I was not sorry to replace the board, since the customer also reported flashing numbers, & high numbers, maybe explainable due to the non-optimal hook-up, but didn't want to chance it possibly glitching out again.

Or maybe the the VXT had a catatonic issue long before you were there and the "others" connected it up that way to be switched by the thermostat so it reset with every heating cycle which masked the catatonic issue. The down side to this theory is it worked OK on your bench.

Jells

Gordo said:

@Jells: Did you happen to save that VXT that failed after only 2 years?

Oh, it's still installed! I haven't really taken a dive on this thing yet, it only failed last week and for now I'm just making sure that the water level stays up.

mattmia2

109A_5 said:

ChrisJ said:

Gordo said:

@gerry gill : We had one VXT we installed a few months ago that failed right out of the box just as you described.
We sent it to Hydrolevel for testing and they found that capacitor #7 (marked C7 on the the board and smaller than a match-head) had failed.
They sent us a new one.
We now electrically test all of our units prior to going in the field.
Have you sent any of your failed units to Hydrolevel?

A surface mount capacitor was likely either a ceramic or a tantalum.
Ceramics are more likely as they're cheap and extremely reliable and long lasting. Tantalums are very expensive and can be moody but are a necessary evil. @mattmia2 Did I describe it well?

C7 in this VXT version pictured is not a surface mount type, it does look like a ceramic type, the value appears to be a 104 or 0.1 microfarad. The part is less than a dollar. Easy to replace with the proper tools and skills.

I believe that is a multi layer ceramic cap. my experience with them is limited, but their ceramic disc cousin is nearly indestructible, I I have only seen ceramic discs fail if they saw a huge over voltage like with a hook up of a wrong power source or connecting something far exceeding the rating to the input of test equipment or near lighting strikes, or physically broken off the board. Usually if they are bad you can see it. Perhaps they got a bad batch. I suspect they only way they would be failed that would cause a problem is if it is shorted, it is probably for RFI suppression or to protect from back emf from a coil.

mattmia2

Oh, and smd electrolytic caps are very common and have the same problems with poor quality, miss application, and degrading if not used that other electrolytics have. They are usually a little can with a plastic base with the leads folded under it. A trick to replace them is to twist them in the plane of the board and the leads will shear off and you can remove the leads with a fine tip iron and solder a new one on from the edge of the lead.

JohnNY

Gordo said:

@JohnNY : Re: those upside down solenoids you unfortunately ran into, where they on the newer "reversible" style VXTs by any chance?

I'm not sure. I've never heard the word reversible in this context. What's reversible about them? They were brand new though, about three months ago.

ChrisJ

JohnNY said:

Gordo said:

@JohnNY : Re: those upside down solenoids you unfortunately ran into, where they on the newer "reversible" style VXTs by any chance?

I'm not sure. I've never heard the word reversible in this context. What's reversible about them? They were brand new though, about three months ago.

JohnNY

@ChrisJ OH Yeah! I noticed that. I wasn't sure if that was new feature or if I was just noticing that in the manual. So, yes. They were the reversible units.

gerry gill

Gordo said:

@gerry gill : I guess we dodged the problems you had because our stock is a bit dated.
I will buy up used VXTs from the surplus market and rebuild the valves for fun.
The ones marked on the listings as "broken, for parts only" are the most interesting.

I gather that you put several in, they tested ok when installed, but then went catatonic sometime later?
That $*cks.

Correct Gordo. Some of been in service for many months, and then all of a sudden get wiggy

Jells

So I'm back at this as the heating season starts. I just called Hydrolevel and they basically told me to **** off and buy a new one. He said it was probably a power surge! It was a 2 year warranty from date of mfr (which is an odd way of doing it not accounting for time on shelf), so my failure date last winter was already out of warranty. He even acted surprised that there was a replacement valve unit with solenoid for sale at Supplyhouse. Oh, and he basically called HH a bunch of whiney ****.

So that part is $125, a new is $250. The electronics appear sound and this seems a solenoid or valve failure, but who knows? If I want to stay away from them entirely, what's the best competing product? I do not live there, so constantly monitoring level myself is not a good plan!

@Gordo

ChrisJ

Jells said:

So I'm back at this as the heating season starts. I just called Hydrolevel and they basically told me to **** off and buy a new one. He said it was probably a power surge! It was a 2 year warranty from date of mfr (which is an odd way of doing it not accounting for time on shelf), so my failure date last winter was already out of warranty. He even acted surprised that there was a replacement valve unit with solenoid for sale at Supplyhouse. Oh, and he basically called HH a bunch of whiney ****.

So that part is $125, a new is $250. The electronics appear sound and this seems a solenoid or valve failure, but who knows? If I want to stay away from them entirely, what's the best competing product? I do not live there, so constantly monitoring level myself is not a good plan!

@Gordo

Are you sure you're not exaggerating a bit?

Jells

ChrisJ said:

Jells said:

So I'm back at this as the heating season starts. I just called Hydrolevel and they basically told me to **** off and buy a new one. He said it was probably a power surge! It was a 2 year warranty from date of mfr (which is an odd way of doing it not accounting for time on shelf), so my failure date last winter was already out of warranty. He even acted surprised that there was a replacement valve unit with solenoid for sale at Supplyhouse. Oh, and he basically called HH a bunch of whiney ****.

So that part is $125, a new is $250. The electronics appear sound and this seems a solenoid or valve failure, but who knows? If I want to stay away from them entirely, what's the best competing product? I do not live there, so constantly monitoring level myself is not a good plan!

@Gordo

Are you sure you're not exaggerating a bit?

Sure I am. But when a service tech tells you you're out of warranty and your only option is to buy a new unit, and that people in online forums are complainers, that's how I 'interpret' it. I've had standup companies replace something just months past warranty. This one didn't, and said they didn't even sell parts.

ChrisJ

Jells said:

ChrisJ said:

Jells said:

So I'm back at this as the heating season starts. I just called Hydrolevel and they basically told me to **** off and buy a new one. He said it was probably a power surge! It was a 2 year warranty from date of mfr (which is an odd way of doing it not accounting for time on shelf), so my failure date last winter was already out of warranty. He even acted surprised that there was a replacement valve unit with solenoid for sale at Supplyhouse. Oh, and he basically called HH a bunch of whiney ****.

So that part is $125, a new is $250. The electronics appear sound and this seems a solenoid or valve failure, but who knows? If I want to stay away from them entirely, what's the best competing product? I do not live there, so constantly monitoring level myself is not a good plan!

@Gordo

Are you sure you're not exaggerating a bit?

Sure I am. But when a service tech tells you you're out of warranty and your only option is to buy a new unit, and that people in online forums are complainers, that's how I 'interpret' it. I've had standup companies replace something just months past warranty. This one didn't, and said they didn't even sell parts.

I'm not expert, but I'm pretty sure that would be consider libel if it didn't actually happen.

It's also not fair to the company to be honest.

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

Jells said:

ChrisJ said:

Jells said:

So I'm back at this as the heating season starts. I just called Hydrolevel and they basically told me to **** off and buy a new one. He said it was probably a power surge! It was a 2 year warranty from date of mfr (which is an odd way of doing it not accounting for time on shelf), so my failure date last winter was already out of warranty. He even acted surprised that there was a replacement valve unit with solenoid for sale at Supplyhouse. Oh, and he basically called HH a bunch of whiney ****.

So that part is $125, a new is $250. The electronics appear sound and this seems a solenoid or valve failure, but who knows? If I want to stay away from them entirely, what's the best competing product? I do not live there, so constantly monitoring level myself is not a good plan!

@Gordo

Are you sure you're not exaggerating a bit?

Sure I am. But when a service tech tells you you're out of warranty and your only option is to buy a new unit, and that people in online forums are complainers, that's how I 'interpret' it. I've had standup companies replace something just months past warranty. This one didn't, and said they didn't even sell parts.

I'm not expert, but I'm pretty sure that would be consider libel if it didn't actually happen.

It's also not fair to the company to be honest.

Well, it is libel, but I doubt that anyone will worry about it -- since it just joins the usual collection of people in online forums who are complainers.

Jells

ChrisJ said:

Jells said:

ChrisJ said:

Jells said:

So I'm back at this as the heating season starts. I just called Hydrolevel and they basically told me to **** off and buy a new one. He said it was probably a power surge! It was a 2 year warranty from date of mfr (which is an odd way of doing it not accounting for time on shelf), so my failure date last winter was already out of warranty. He even acted surprised that there was a replacement valve unit with solenoid for sale at Supplyhouse. Oh, and he basically called HH a bunch of whiney ****.

So that part is $125, a new is $250. The electronics appear sound and this seems a solenoid or valve failure, but who knows? If I want to stay away from them entirely, what's the best competing product? I do not live there, so constantly monitoring level myself is not a good plan!

@Gordo

Are you sure you're not exaggerating a bit?

Sure I am. But when a service tech tells you you're out of warranty and your only option is to buy a new unit, and that people in online forums are complainers, that's how I 'interpret' it. I've had standup companies replace something just months past warranty. This one didn't, and said they didn't even sell parts.

I'm not expert, but I'm pretty sure that would be consider libel if it didn't actually happen.

It's also not fair to the company to be honest.

Yes, you're not an expert. "basically" is a phrase well known to mean the writer is paraphrasing. As opposed to "literally".

Mad Dog_2

Most people don't usually feel motivated to write a letter of praise or a positive review.  If they feel they got the short shrift, they "get Their Irish up" and let it rip!!  If they did actually knock HH they're barking up the wrong Oak Tree.

 Unlike TripAdvisor or Yelp, et cetera, this place is so much more than a complaint center.  It is the hangout of many very experienced industry professionals and super diligent DIYers and Homeowners that install the actual products and vet them, rate them. It's very much like "Consumer Reports."   The opinions are much stronger and serious  than your Beef Wellington being cold or dusty drapes in your Hotel.  They should not be dismissed or taken lightly.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Jells

Mad Dog_2 said:

Most people don't usually feel motivated to write a letter of praise or a positive review. If they feel they got the short shrift, they "get Their Irish up" and let it rip!! If they did actually knock HH they're barking up the wrong Oak Tree.

Unlike TripAdvisor or Yelp, et cetera, this place is so much more than a complaint center. It is the hangout of many very experienced industry professionals and super diligent DIYers and Homeowners that install the actual products and vet them, rate them. It's very much like "Consumer Reports." The opinions are much stronger and serious than your Beef Wellington being cold or dusty drapes in your Hotel. They should not be dismissed or taken lightly. Mad Dog 🐕

100% agree! That's why it was so annoying to have him dismiss it when I mentioned long technical threads about VXT failures. "It might have been a power surge". Like you can't expect that and build your $250 device to withstand it? It's not like most people have their boiler on a surge protector!

FWIW, I pulled the VXT unit today and tried powering the solenoid separately. it seems to energize, which means I have an electronics failure not an electro-mechanical one. I'm going to mess with it some more and make certain it's actually opening.

EDIT: As I feared, the valve works. I can blow air through when I energize it, where the unit does nothing, not even a click. Why would I buy another VXT at this point?

New England SteamWorks

For what it's worth: We install a ton of VXTs, and we have not had a single problem or return...

Jells

New England SteamWorks said:

For what it's worth: We install a ton of VXTs, and we have not had a single problem or return...

Sadly it's a battle of anecdotes in this thread! There's no doubt that mine failed. And as far as I can tell at this point, there is no equivalent competing fill valve with a counter.

ChrisJ

Jells said:

New England SteamWorks said:

For what it's worth: We install a ton of VXTs, and we have not had a single problem or return...

Sadly it's a battle of anecdotes in this thread! There's no doubt that mine failed. And as far as I can tell at this point, there is no equivalent competing fill valve with a counter.

I have a 1/2" ball valve on mine that cost about $10.
It hasn't failed yet in 12 years.

Yes, it makes me haul my dead bones down to the boiler once in a while, but, it's a good idea to have a look at the equipment regardless.


I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's about the only help I can be on the subject. I went 100% manual fill for multiple reasons.

Jells

ChrisJ said:

Jells said:

New England SteamWorks said:

For what it's worth: We install a ton of VXTs, and we have not had a single problem or return...

Sadly it's a battle of anecdotes in this thread! There's no doubt that mine failed. And as far as I can tell at this point, there is no equivalent competing fill valve with a counter.

I have a 1/2" ball valve on mine that cost about $10.
It hasn't failed yet in 12 years.

Yes, it makes me haul my dead bones down to the boiler once in a while, but, it's a good idea to have a look at the equipment regardless.


I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's about the only help I can be on the subject. I went 100% manual fill for multiple reasons.

Like I said, I don't live at the property with the boiler. Doing it manually is not optimal.

Jamie Hall

Although I am not pleased with much of the rest of your posts, @Jells , you do have a good point in one: who would want a surge protector on their boiler? And the answer to that is -- everyone should with modern boilers. There are very few devices built and available today which can withstand even a relatively modest overvoltage spike, if it happens at just the wrong moment, particularly if it happens on the neutral rather than the hot. That's a sad fact of life. That it doesn't happen more often speaks volumes about the stability of our electrical grid That it happens at all speaks volumes about the stress that grid is under. That said, most modern equipment will withstand the ordinary spikes on the grid. Should they be designed and built in all cases with surge suppression built in? Perhaps -- but that raises an interesting design problem: how big a spike? How much energy? What peak voltage? Plus an interesting maintenance problem for the homeowner: most suppressors are basically one shot devices, unless they are flat out power conditioners (which don't come cheap, nor are they small -- you're looking at a big transformer, a couple of big inductors and a couple of big capacitors, at least), and I venture that most homeowners aren't going to be going to the basement or wherever from time to time to see if their surge suppressor is still functional.

All that said, it is also worth remembering that surges can be local, as well as grid induced, and the latter tend to be more lethal to other equipment connected on the same drop. This is because while they tend to have less total energy, they also tend to have much higher peak voltages. The user, however, can guard against those by making sure that they do not have equipment which can cause surges, or that it is operated and controlled in such a way as to minimize them.