Wax Cap or Poo?

taylorgeo

DIYer here.

Trying to figure out what's going on at the bottom of the toilet. Been seeing this crud more frequently and in greater amounts.

Thanks in advanced.

Zman

Probably both! It is time to pull the toilet and see what is going on.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Agree with @Zman

Jamie Hall

Or mold. And I agree with the above, too!

hot_rod

Could be a cracked bowl. Most likely a bowl wax leak. Get it soon as it will start rotting the floor around the closet flange.

Aggressive plunging lately??

taylorgeo

hot_rod said:

Could be a cracked bowl. Most likely a bowl wax leak. Get it soon as it will start rotting the floor around the closet flange.

Aggressive plunging lately??

No aggressive plunging, but we're constantly inserting and removing a raised toilet seat for an elderly parent – or maybe because the toilet is over 20 years old, and we have a very large family member who loves to read on the toilet, lol.

Either way, looks like it's time to swap this one out. Thanks, all!

hot_rod

taylorgeo said:

hot_rod said:

Could be a cracked bowl. Most likely a bowl wax leak. Get it soon as it will start rotting the floor around the closet flange.

Aggressive plunging lately??

No aggressive plunging, but we're constantly inserting and removing a raised toilet seat for an elderly parent – or maybe because the toilet is over 20 years old, and we have a very large family member who loves to read on the toilet, lol.

Either way, looks like it's time to swap this one out. Thanks, all!

Check out the 19” high line toilets. Fun for all ages😂

taylorgeo

Would the 19-inch be too tall for a 5’ 3” elderly person?

Jamie Hall

taylorgeo said:

Would the 19-inch be too tall for a 5’ 3” elderly person?

No. On the contrary -- much less bending of the knees and back.

hot_rod

A grab rail is nice for elderly folk also.

Long Beach Ed

When you reset the bowl, set it in plaster like they do in NYC. It will keep it from rocking which will help preserve the wax ring.

Mad Dog_2

Yup...thats poo 💩 poo juice leeching out on each flush because the wax ring is done!
Pull bowl, carefully turn on side. Scrape off all old plaster & wax, scrape wax off flange. New Brass Johnny Bolts, DEEP seal wax rings (that's all I use) on the flange.   a whole bucket of plaster (the ones about the size of a gallon of milk).  If you have the grout from original tile job, you can mix w Plaster.   Make consistency of pudding.  Have a bucket of clean water and large sponge 🧽 right next to you.  Pack plaster all around the outside of wax ring and follow rim of bowl.  Sqoush down a little twist put both knees and all your weight in toilet seat. Make up Johnny bolt nuts and washes as tight as u can with fingers. Work fast and clean all the excess plaster and toss it.  Keep rinsing sponge until perfect.  Thats how I do a bowl.  Mad Dog 🐕 

psb75

I highly recommend Sioux Chief 3 1/2" nylon closet bolts--not brass. That is all I ever use now on toilet installs. I'm SO much more comfortable tightening nylon nuts on a nylon bolts with toilet porcelain in the middle! I also highly recommend using the soft, white, rubber wedges under the toilet base to eliminate ANY movement. The wedges and extra bolt length trim very easily with non-electric tools.

MikeL_2

     Here's an article on " trouble free toilets " that I've found useful......

Kickstand55

Tile floors are uneven causing the toilet to rock at times, especially if someone is heavy, bumps into it or moves about while in place.
My fix has been to be sure the flange is solidly mounted to the floor with stainless steel screws of sufficient length to penetrate the entire floor. Instead of using the usual closet bolts, I prefer 5/16" x 3" closet screws, wood thread at one end and 5/16" NC thread on the other. Then I apply a copious amount of grout below the toilet as I set in place with the proper thickness wax ring. Never use silicone on a tile floor as it is a bear to remove later and looks like a hack job. After securing the base to the flange, clean up the grout and let the customer know not to use the toilet for a day. Never once have I had a call back.

taylorgeo

Thanks, all! Great information here!

Anyone know a good plumber in the NYC/Long Island area?

hot_rod

I like to flush a few times before sealing to the floor, just to be sure.

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

I like to flush a few times before sealing to the floor, just to be sure.

If it's installed correctly even without a wax ring you shouldn't see anything under those conditions.
So what you really want to do is give the thing a good clog so it backs up into the toilet and puts some pressure against the wax seal.

ChrisJ

So,
We've got one guy in this thread that uses nylon closet bolts so keep any risk of cracking the toilet minimal. Then we have another guy who wants a flange screwed down using huge screws and 5/16 closet bolts which also screw into the wood, so the complete opposite of the first guy.

Then we have the two NYC guys saying to pour a plaster base, the only place in the country which has ever done such a thing to my knowledge.

Interesting thread. I like it.


Who's going to start the horn vs no horn argument?
Or, wax ring on the flange, or on the bowl first?

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

hot_rod said:

I like to flush a few times before sealing to the floor, just to be sure.

If it's installed correctly even without a wax ring you shouldn't see anything under those conditions.
So what you really want to do is give the thing a good clog so it backs up into the toilet and puts some pressure against the wax seal.

Based on how many hundreds of toilets that you have installed?

Improperly installed flanges, below the floor surface is a sure bowl wax leak waiting for the first flush. Stacking two wax rings can also get you a leak on first flush. I've been there.

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

ChrisJ said:

hot_rod said:

I like to flush a few times before sealing to the floor, just to be sure.

If it's installed correctly even without a wax ring you shouldn't see anything under those conditions.
So what you really want to do is give the thing a good clog so it backs up into the toilet and puts some pressure against the wax seal.

Based on how many hundreds of toilets that you have installed?

Improperly installed flanges, below the floor surface is a sure bowl wax leak waiting for the first flush. Stacking two wax rings can also get you a leak on first flush. I've been there.

You've installed hundreds of toilets?
I could be wrong, maybe even done perfectly they would still leak....

I'm just surprised you've installed a lot of toilets.

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

hot_rod said:

ChrisJ said:

hot_rod said:

I like to flush a few times before sealing to the floor, just to be sure.

If it's installed correctly even without a wax ring you shouldn't see anything under those conditions.
So what you really want to do is give the thing a good clog so it backs up into the toilet and puts some pressure against the wax seal.

Based on how many hundreds of toilets that you have installed?

Improperly installed flanges, below the floor surface is a sure bowl wax leak waiting for the first flush. Stacking two wax rings can also get you a leak on first flush. I've been there.

You've installed hundreds of toilets?
I could be wrong, maybe even done perfectly they would still leak....

I'm just surprised you've installed a lot of toilets.

Been a plumber for over 50 years. Started with my dads company as a lad in NY.
We plumbed many custom homes when we had the first company in Utah for 16 years. Then 23 years in Missouri as a plumber. Now back in Utah still doing occasional WC installs for friends and family. Time goes quickly

Mad Dog_2

You're barking up the wrong tree, Dawg!.  Hot Rod's plumbing and heating experience
Is EPIC and lengthy.  The guy's done and seen just about all one could come across.  I'm sure its more than hundreds, he's being modest.  Over a few year period I installed well over a thousand on a few Manhattan High rise new construction jobs.   When you gotta produce 6-8 per day, you better get good installation systems in place.  And they better not rock or leak!  In some circles, its popular and common to knock Union labor, but we have extremely high standards of excellence (NYC Plumbers Local #1 In the House!!!! (RIP Local #2)to achieve just because we make a VG wage and bennies.  You get one too many leakers, you're on the next layoff list.   Mad 🐕 Dog

psb75

Here's something about plaster or grout placed under a toilet installation: have you ever come in and had to RESET a new toilet on a floor with old plaster or grout in place? Notsomuch fun.

Mad Dog_2

Yup but it comes off.  Concrete is the worst. MD

psb75

Caulking comes off too. But it has "no place" around a toilet base. My maxim: caulking is ONLY good for HIDING leaks around a toilet. Wouldn't you rather KNOW if your toilet was leaking--like the toilet at the "head" of this discussion thread?

ChrisJ

psb75 said:

Caulking comes off too. But it has "no place" around a toilet base. My maxim: caulking is ONLY good for HIDING leaks around a toilet. Wouldn't you rather KNOW if your toilet was leaking--like the toilet at the "head" of this discussion thread?

It's also good for keeping urine etc out from under it.
Especially during an overflow condition.

It's also required by code in most areas.

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

You're barking up the wrong tree, Dawg!.  Hot Rod's plumbing and heating experience
Is EPIC and lengthy.  The guy's done and seen just about all one could come across.  I'm sure its more than hundreds, he's being modest.  Over a few year period I installed well over a thousand on a few Manhattan High rise new construction jobs.   When you gotta produce 6-8 per day, you better get good installation systems in place.  And they better not rock or leak!  In some circles, its popular and common to knock Union labor, but we have extremely high standards of excellence (NYC Plumbers Local #1 In the House!!!! (RIP Local #2)to achieve just because we make a VG wage and bennies.  You get one too many leakers, you're on the next layoff list.   Mad 🐕 Dog

I see that.

MikeL_2

Both the IRC & IPC require all fixtures to be sealed water tight where they come in contact with walls & floors.
   A toilet will sit leak free for decades when set on a properly prepared & sturdy bathroom floor & correctly installed flange.
   Most bowl waxes never come in contact with water until there is a back up in the piping connected to the flange.
   A plumbers most important duties include providing & maintaining sanitation. An unsealed toilet bowl will allow nasty germs to accumulate & multiply.....
   
    
    

hot_rod

@taylorgeo prepare yourself emotionally, spiritually and physically when you lift that toilet

KC_Jones

hot_rod said:

@taylorgeo prepare yourself emotionally, spiritually and physically when you lift that toilet

Recent bathroom gut I did, the original drains running in the floor were pitched incorrectly. The toilet that was supposed to be upwind of the other, was downwind by the pitch. That toilet had been disconnected for a while and the closet flange plugged, when I got to the point of disconnecting the closet flange and cutting it out, it was pretty full of "stuff". My kids are like "How are you doing that", the answer, because I have to. I was taking serious stock of my life choices in those moments.

I've cleaned grease traps in a restaurant, pits at a car wash, so this honestly wasn't that bad, but the rest of the family was gagging. It was pretty ripe and moist. I'm sure the trash men appreciated that gem on Monday morning. lol

My wife was impressed I put on rubber gloves for a change.

taylorgeo

Wax Ring or...

hot_rod

I would first remove the toilet and see how and where the flange is mounted. If the flange is not on top of the finished floor, you either need a spacer ring, or a deep type bowl wax.

Looks like some sort of sponge rubber gasket? I’ve also seen wax rings with a thin rubber cover, less mess.

Lock the closet bolts into the flange with brass nuts and washers to keep them from tipping, and make removal easy for the next guy.

Mad Dog_2

I think every plumber has to crack one toilet tightening it up and drop one toilet tank cover...its an expensive right of passage .  Ha ha.  Mad 🐕 Dog. 

taylorgeo

Really worried about doing this toilet swap myself. Seems like so many things can be/or go wrong. Maybe the pipe underneath is messed up, or the closet flange could be busted. Then there's the new toilet – what if it leaks after I install it? I'd hate to wait a day or two for plumber to come rescue me, while my two elderly parents are using a commode!

And what about the sewer gasses coming in for a day or two while waiting for a plumber?

Decisions, decisions...

reggi

You could always check the availability of rooms at the local Hotels before you start.. Did you figure out how long this repair is going to take you and . .. well if it's the only toilet 🚽 there..  
JK.. you'll do fine  

taylorgeo

Spoke to a plumber today and he said if the flange is bad and there's a lead pipe underneath, he will need to open up the ceiling under the bathroom floor.

What???

ChrisJ

taylorgeo said:

Spoke to a plumber today and he said if the flange is bad and there's a lead pipe underneath, he will need to open up the ceiling under the bathroom floor.

What???

I mean,
You can either open the ceiling under it, or open that tile floor.
One way or another he needs to get to the pipe to fix it.

I'm betting the ceiling is easier to repair.

taylorgeo

After pulling the toilet, how can I tell if the pipe is Cast Iron or Lead? I'm hoping it's PVC!

ChrisJ

taylorgeo said:

After pulling the toilet, how can I tell if the pipe is Cast Iron or Lead? I'm hoping it's PVC!

I don't think it matters what it is as long as it's on good shape.  You'll know white plastic from rusty black cast iron from grey/ silver lead.

Unfortunately just like any plumber you have no way of knowing until you dig in and see what's going on under there.

taylorgeo

@ChrisJ Yeah, I hear you. If the pipe happens to be cast iron or lead, I just hope it’s in good shape AND level. Then I could just pop on one of those Oatey Twist-n-Set flanges. Those things get so snug I might not have to bolt the flange into floor.