Gas valve stuck once, should it be replaced?
Valve is a Honeywell VR8215S1214. The prior owner had a note on the cabinet of the furnace that the valve was replaced in 2014, IIRC.
Question is, should I be looking for a replacement proactively, or just let it ride until it sticks again?
Comments
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Give it one more try. If it sticks again replace it.
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This was my thinking as well. Hopefully it won't stick and leave me in a bind. I was considering just buying a replacement pre-emptively, but thinking I'll hold off and if it sticks again, hope the tap trick works long enough to get one in.Tim McElwain said:Give it one more try. If it sticks again replace it.
Thanks!0 -
If it were Grandma's house, I'd get the replacement in the air. If it were my house, I'd wait.0
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If it sticks shut.....could it stick open?
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That was my thought but i'll defer to @Tim McElwain on this.JUGHNE said:If it sticks shut.....could it stick open?
Keep in mind someone needs to set up the new valve, it isn't just a swap it and leave it.0 -
@MTC
The valve is 8 years old, not an old valve but not a new valve either. I would have one on hand. You should have a gas pressure gauge or a manometer that reads in " of water collum to set the new valve up. It should also be combustion testing if replaced
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Get a new one and leave it in the boiler and see what happens. Its probably starting ti fail Mad Dog0
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I forget where I heard this, but someone once said that you don't get the ultimate catastrophe out of the blue- there's always some kind of warning.
I think this was a warning. I'd replace that gas valve now.All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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The truth is you can't go wrong typically if you replace the valve. I tell folks if it stuck shut and it does it again replace it. If however it stuck open replace it immediately.1
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It will never stick again if you buy a spare.
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Long Beach Ed, ain't that the truth.1
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Just to tell a Christmas Eve story from about 10 years and 1 day ago;
Landlady called that her tenant was getting too hot in her house.
As she is telling me the old lady is exaggerating the situation, she says she has to hang up and call the fire dept.
My pager goes off shortly there after.
The lady had been on the edge of panic and shut off the breaker in the garage to the furnace.
She could not have managed the wretched steps into the dirt basement and the gas valve required a crescent wrench....a long one at that...it was a grunter to close.
Then she could smell something burning and went across the street to the landlady and thus the fire dept call.
When I arrived, from 4 blocks away, I shut off the gas at the meter.
Less than 6 minute respond by the dept....pretty good for volunteers on that eve.
Her gas valve was not closing sometimes and then perhaps only part way.
The blower would be activated by the old school fan/limit insert switch.
When she shut off the power the blower quit but not the gas valve.
I stationed a fireman at each floor supply register. This was a terrible install on a hack remodel. Flex duct to each register was connected directly to the plenum.
There was no crawlspace that you would send anyone into. The flex at the furnace was really hot and sagging.
I turned the power on and jumped the blower to run. (gas was off).
Had smoke come out of any floor register we would have chain sawed the floor open near that run. (It's amazing how enthused young firemen are to cut things open, carbide tipped roof chain saws are a lot more fun than the old axe)
Fortunately no smoke appeared and the ducts cooled off.
They waited around for any flare up but none occurred.
(Probably disappointed there was no fire to be had....yes they get pumped up for this and came this far....10 blocks on Christmas Eve)
The elderly lady tenant went to stay with her sister, I don't know if she ever returned to this house.
Being sub freezing weather, I spent that Christmas Eve replacing the gas valve, cleaning/inspecting the heat exchanger, installing a new pilot and checking out. (our family has Christmas on New Years as so many are in the "on call" medical fields.)
The furnace was a Junker the land lady had brought at an auction.
It was 3x oversized for the terrible ductwork. The return was worse than the supply (as usual).
I downfired it as much as possible but it still cycled on the limit switch even with the blower on high speed.
In 2 years the GV failed, I believe from short cycling.
It was a gas valve from the 50-60's, old school solenoid valve that did not always seat on loss of power also separate pilot light and control.
So, a story from Christmas Past.....
Merry Christmas to all!
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Thanks all for your comments.
I just looked at the labels in the furnace again, and it has a time stamp from August 1994. Since it's coming up on 30 years old at this point, is there any point in replacing a part on it, or should I just be planning to replace the entire unit before long? Its a Goodman GMP 100-3, if that makes any difference - I hear they're pretty reliable, but have heat exchanger issues sometimes. Its been running great other than the one hiccup with the gas valve, but seems like it might be wasted money to have a valve installed and set up properly, etc at this point.
This is a rental - I'm not worried about absolute highest efficiency (though I do like to keep things efficient for my tenants and the planet) - my main concerns are reliability and longevity, and a reasonable purchase price point. What makes/models would you recommend? Its an older craftsman style house, so probably built in the 1920s or so. Prior owners had it insulated with either blown in or foam (plug holes in trim etc) at some point. Its maybe 1600 sq ft, 2 BR 1 BA plus unheated but finished walk up attic storage space. I had a contractor add A/C to it a few years ago and that's working mostly ok, though lack of 2nd floor returns make it a bit more uneven on cooling than heating. I'm guessing we'll need to reduce the btu output of the new furnace, but can work with local guys on that.
Anyway, any suggestions on whether or not to even bother with the gas valve, and if not, what furnace make/model have you found most reliable and long lasting for a decent price?0 -
At 30 years old that furnace doesn't owe you anything. It was the least expensive option for its day and I wouldn't be surprised if it has heat exchanger issues. I recommend getting estimates on replacement before you need to replace it on an emergency basis.0
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We haven't had any gas smells or anything, but I have heard it can get very small cracks that don't lead to bad smells etc in this line. I'll start looking at replacement - not worth dropping the cash on a valve and getting it tested and adjusted for such an old unit. I hadn't looked at its age before...SuperTech said:At 30 years old that furnace doesn't owe you anything. It was the least expensive option for its day and I wouldn't be surprised if it has heat exchanger issues. I recommend getting estimates on replacement before you need to replace it on an emergency basis.
Thanks for the input guys. Hopefully the gas valve will hold out for a bit while I look into replacements.0 -
Hi again,
Have decided to replace my almost 30 year old Goodman 80% rather than spend any money repairing it. House is 2 story, about 20'x26' (about 1080sq ft) heated, plus a semi-finished walk up attic that is not conditioned. Pretty good insulation, older moderate number of 2 pane windows. I'm in zone 4, so at 45-50btu/sq ft would be 48,600 - 54,000btu. estimated heating need.
So I'm thinking a 96% 60k Goodman would meet my needs well. Will be a heck of an improvement on the 100k 80% (I believe installed before house was insulated at all) as far as short cycling, gas consumption, etc. Does this sound right, given limited information?
I've been researching single vs 2 stage. It is my understanding that for most people it will not actually save utility costs (tenant pays, but lower bills for them = happy tenant = good for me too), but mostly just makes comfort better with more even temperature control. I'm not really looking to spend a lot more for that, this upgrade should already lengthen cycles and make comfort much better, quieter, etc. What I am curious about and can't seem to find any info on, is maintenance/life expectancy between the 2. Obviously 2 stage is a little more complicated and repairs would be more expensive, but what effects does running the furnace at 65-70% a good majority of the time have on the overall life of the equipment, repairs necessary, etc? I could see the lower temperature and less on/off cycling extending the life of the heat exchanger possibly? But its also running for longer times, does this wear it out in a different way, or cause other parts to fail sooner?
As a landlord, I am willing to invest a little more to get a 96% 60k btu unit and save the tenants money and reduce environmental effects, rather than the simpler and cheaper option of an 80% 80k btu that would drop right in place of the existing. I'm not going to spend a lot extra for the comfort or maybe a tiny efficiency bump of 2 stage, but if it made the furnace last longer, I might consider it. My suspicion is that it would somehow be the opposite and have a shorter lifespan, or at least more service calls during its life.
Finally, any suggested brands that are on the more budget end of pricing, but solid and reliable? I'm leaning towards Goodman at the moment, but open to suggestions.
Any input on this plan? No offense to the pros here, but in my experience at least 80% of contractors will tell me that I'll save lots of utilities money on 2 stage etc, which does not seem to be remotely true... so I like to do my own homework before calling people out who have a financial vestment in their answers...0 -
@MTC
It is a good thing you are being a proactive landlord and considering replacing equipment before it leaves your tenants in the cold. if you are upgrading to a higher efficient furnace, even if it is single stage you will likely notice a reduction in your fuel bills. I would advise rather than picking out a brand name, that you pick out a good contractor or maybe 2 to give you quotes. When purchasing equipment you aren't really buying just the equipment but rather you are purchasing a service, the most important part of that service is the contractor, not the equipment. Goodman is a good mid price brand these days, Armstrong, Bryant are some others. Most of the furnace lines will have a flagship brand name that uses many of the same parts, they generally cost more but may offer a better warranty, again you are purchasing the service the contractor provides and that is more important in my opinion than the brand name on the equipment. You want a contractor with a good relationship with the brand they are installing, this way warranty will likely not be a problem, and they likely carry common parts at their shop or supply house.
I think you would be fine to have a new high efficient single stage furnace installed. Keep in mind that you will need to run new venting, and will need somewhere to dispose of the condensate
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You need to do a heat loss calculation on the building to properly size it. There are some online calculators. The more information it needs the more accurate it will be. It at minimum needs the area and construction of the walls, ceiling, floor and doors and windows.
The worst case condition only occurs for a very short time during the year so with 2 stage it runs low heat most of the time and matches the load better. That can help a lot with a distribution system that isnt very well designed. One problem I ran in to with 2 stage was that the 2 speed inducer fan seemed to be a custom configuration for Lennox so I had to buy it from Lennox, there were no aftermarket replacements so I had to pay Lennox's markups but I dont think being 2 stage makes it less reliable. I dont know if this is an issue with other brands.
Condensing adds a lot of complexity, 2 stage only marginally more.
I think a tennent is more likely to complain about uneven heat than 10% more on the gas bill. Fixing the return issue could save more than the condensing furnace.0 -
You should read the fine print on warranties.
In many cases the warranty for installation in a rental unit is decreased substantially.
IMO, the less high tech put into a rental makes life easier.
Not many tenants appreciate you going above and beyond the standard install.
They will remember, however, the 3 days it might take to get some exotic part.0 -
Agree with @JUGHNE about the additional cost of the install over the minimum for the basic job. Since you probably have a more efficient home with insulation upgrades you mentioned, it is quite possible that the 60,000-80% unit may work perfectly for your situation. The load calculation will be the best way to tell. By selecting the proper size, you will offer more comfort and a lower operating cost. And if the tenant saves $10.00 a month instead or $20.00 they will never know. The fact that they saved the $10.00 makes you a hero! If there is a failure, and the parts are easily available from a local supplier, the no heat inconvenience is minimum.
And the extra $3000.00 you spent on the higher efficiency does not show up in the rent. But will show up in their savings. Not a good investment on your part. That tenant will probably forget to do the maintenance anyway. Then move out after 3 years of lower fuel bills and leave you with a poorly maintained expensive furnace instead of a poorly maintained inexpensive furnace.
Mr. Ed
Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics0 -
Thanks, I am a very proactive landlord in general, and provide very nice, higher end places for my tenants. This furnace has been here since long before I bought the place, and has been operating great. I think I replaced a hot surface igniter a few years back, and the one time gas valve stick that was fixed with a tap... but its served its time and tenant never complained, but as I was talking with her about measuring out the house etc for sizing, did mention her bills were quite high last couple months. She's a fantastic tenant and keeping her happy is well worth a little extra investment (within reason).GGross said:@MTC
It is a good thing you are being a proactive landlord and considering replacing equipment before it leaves your tenants in the cold. if you are upgrading to a higher efficient furnace, even if it is single stage you will likely notice a reduction in your fuel bills. I would advise rather than picking out a brand name, that you pick out a good contractor or maybe 2 to give you quotes. When purchasing equipment you aren't really buying just the equipment but rather you are purchasing a service, the most important part of that service is the contractor, not the equipment. Goodman is a good mid price brand these days, Armstrong, Bryant are some others. Most of the furnace lines will have a flagship brand name that uses many of the same parts, they generally cost more but may offer a better warranty, again you are purchasing the service the contractor provides and that is more important in my opinion than the brand name on the equipment. You want a contractor with a good relationship with the brand they are installing, this way warranty will likely not be a problem, and they likely carry common parts at their shop or supply house.
I think you would be fine to have a new high efficient single stage furnace installed. Keep in mind that you will need to run new venting, and will need somewhere to dispose of the condensate
Agree on contractor. Problem is, I find most contractors don't do a heat load calc, try to upsell you on things like 2 stage that you don't necessarily need, etc. Maybe out of ignorance, maybe to make more money, mostly probably just out of the ease of having a mostly cookie cutter plan to bang out jobs fast. I like forums like this where I can educate myself on the nuances of it before talking with contractors, etc. And you guys aren't likely to be trying to sell me a furnace/install, so no alternative incentives
Yes, I do need to go look at potential routes for the PVC venting. When I was there, was assuming I'd just be putting in an 80k 80%, but looking at costs on the equipment, its really only like $400 more to go from that to the 60k 96% for a Goodman (plus additional labor for venting etc of course), so that seems worthwhile. And there is a floor drain a couple feet from the furnace, already has drain from newer AC going to it, so that part will be simple.
Speaking of AC, any concerns with a possible CFM change for the AC, since old unit was 100k btu (I don't know its cfm), and this one might be lower CFM? AC is something I know very little about, but don't want to freeze up a coil or something due to a bad decision...0 -
Yes, agree. I did the rough 45-50btu/ft thing, and its close enough on the 96% 60k that I do think a more detailed calc is especially important. Will do.mattmia2 said:You need to do a heat loss calculation on the building to properly size it. There are some online calculators. The more information it needs the more accurate it will be. It at minimum needs the area and construction of the walls, ceiling, floor and doors and windows.
The worst case condition only occurs for a very short time during the year so with 2 stage it runs low heat most of the time and matches the load better. That can help a lot with a distribution system that isnt very well designed. One problem I ran in to with 2 stage was that the 2 speed inducer fan seemed to be a custom configuration for Lennox so I had to buy it from Lennox, there were no aftermarket replacements so I had to pay Lennox's markups but I dont think being 2 stage makes it less reliable. I dont know if this is an issue with other brands.
Condensing adds a lot of complexity, 2 stage only marginally more.
I think a tennent is more likely to complain about uneven heat than 10% more on the gas bill. Fixing the return issue could save more than the condensing furnace.
The house does ok in heating mode - reasonably balanced with a little register louver tweaking. Problem is the system was designed for heat and not AC, so there are 2 giant returns in the floor of 1st floor, none on 2nd. One of them is right at bottom of stairs, so works pretty well for falling cool air in winter. But upstairs doesn't cool nearly as well as downstairs. I don't think there's a feasible way to address that w/o tearing the whole place apart, so just been living with it. Any suggestions for how to improve upon that that aren't so destructive? I've seen people use an abandoned chimney as a return, but that has all sorts of its own issues, haha...0 -
Yeah, I think I saw that Goodman's limited lifetime on HX does not apply for rentals. Probably most manufacturers are like that? I know they don't do much in the way of taking care of them, so understandable. I change filters etc to ensure it happens...JUGHNE said:You should read the fine print on warranties.
In many cases the warranty for installation in a rental unit is decreased substantially.
IMO, the less high tech put into a rental makes life easier.
Not many tenants appreciate you going above and beyond the standard install.
They will remember, however, the 3 days it might take to get some exotic part.
Agree, don't want to go crazy. Def not getting into variable motors, etc. But these 96% single stage seem relatively simple and available parts, with a large efficiency boost that might keep my fantastic tenant happy and paying me longer, even through rent increases... I think she will really appreciate it, in this case. And most of my higher end tenants do, if they see any benefit to them, such as the utility costs.0 -
If it was going to be anywhere near that much increase, no way I'd do it. I'm seeing about $400 more on the furnace, plus additional venting work and dropping condensate into existing drain from AC. Those last 2 can be reused on future furnaces. So not as crazy as it could have been.EdTheHeaterMan said:Agree with @JUGHNE about the additional cost of the install over the minimum for the basic job. Since you probably have a more efficient home with insulation upgrades you mentioned, it is quite possible that the 60,000-80% unit may work perfectly for your situation. The load calculation will be the best way to tell. By selecting the proper size, you will offer more comfort and a lower operating cost. And if the tenant saves $10.00 a month instead or $20.00 they will never know. The fact that they saved the $10.00 makes you a hero! If there is a failure, and the parts are easily available from a local supplier, the no heat inconvenience is minimum.
And the extra $3000.00 you spent on the higher efficiency does not show up in the rent. But will show up in their savings. Not a good investment on your part. That tenant will probably forget to do the maintenance anyway. Then move out after 3 years of lower fuel bills and leave you with a poorly maintained expensive furnace instead of a poorly maintained inexpensive furnace.
Mr. Ed
Will def do the calc and see where that stands. I do maintenance on all my furnaces to avoid that problem, so mostly just a matter of keeping them from covering the main return with a carpet or something (had that once... sigh).1 -
Necessary airflow for air conditioning is determined by cooling capacity. What make and model is the outdoor condensing unit?—
Bburd0 -
Here's what was installed a few years back:bburd said:Necessary airflow for air conditioning is determined by cooling capacity. What make and model is the outdoor condensing unit?
Ameristar Condensing unit model #M4AC3030B1000N
Ameristar Coil Model #M4CXC025BB1CAA
I know very little about AC, a little more about heating. I just had one of my HVAC guys add the AC and didn't look into it at all...0 -
That looks to be a 2.5 ton A/C So your new furnace should be able to have an appropriate size blower without issue, it also uses r410a so I would say you are in the clear to keep A/C as is, well as best as anyone could say without being on site to check it out first hand.
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Thank you. I've only just begun to understand the way A/C works, and def don't have enough knowledge to really be an informed customer. Thought it was worth checking since we're changing furnace size pretty substantially...GGross said:That looks to be a 2.5 ton A/C So your new furnace should be able to have an appropriate size blower without issue, it also uses r410a so I would say you are in the clear to keep A/C as is, well as best as anyone could say without being on site to check it out first hand.
I tried a couple of pretty simple heat loss calculators, and they're, shockingly to me, coming back with about 30,000 btu or a little higher. I don't know how to account for the technically unheated walk up attic, it undoubtedly loses a decent amount up through the door, etc. But, it seems like I could get away with a 60k 80% if I wanted to go very cheap and simple, or possibly even a 40k 96% unit (these are only like $50 less than the 60k 96% units, but if the proper size...). I never would have thought that I could go that low. I guess we'll find out when I have someone do a more proper calculation.
Any tips or tricks to make the AC balance up/down a bit better w/o any returns on the 2nd floor? And without tearing the place apart to add them, at least not yet... I will likely look into doing just that down the road, but not in the cards right now...0 -
You should have used the ceiling below the unheated attic as part of the envelope if there is no heat ducting to that area.
Is there a closet you could steal some space from or a corner or small section of wall you could box out? Undercutting doors will help some. The air has to be able to get out somewhere for air to be able to get in from the supply.
Th balance for heating vs cooling is somewhat opposite for heating vs cooling, the most heating load is on the first floor, the most cooling load is on the top floor.
Most equipment is very oversized.0 -
I believe it is insulated between the 2nd floor and unconditioned attic, as well as in attic roof rafters, but it's a walk up with full stairs and regular door, so lots of heat still gets up there through the door and up the stairs.
I might have one place I can route a return up there without too much destruction of the nicely finished house. Will keep looking into it. It cools ok up there, but not great, white overcooling first floor. Heat balances pretty well. Def wasn't originally designed for AC. Doors are decently well undercut already.
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As I'm digging into this more, wanted to also consider upgrading my air filtration. Have a standard 1" job now, usually use basic FPR 5 pleated filters to catch more than the dead cat catchers, but not add too much static pressure to the system.
I'm not looking for high level filtration really, as this is a rental. My goals are:
1. Decent filtration for tenant and to protect equipment from build up
2. Annual replacement, as I do it for all my units to make sure it gets done, and want to simplify my maintenance.
3. Low static pressure drop to prolong life of equipment.
4. Relatively easily accessible and not crazy expensive media replacements. Don't mind ordering them online.
I think something like Merv 8-11 or so, 4 or 5 inch media should fit the bill for all of this... Equal better filtration as the FPR 5 I've been using, if large enough size should get to the annual replacement level, should be much lower pressure drop than current 1" filters, and I currently spend $20-30/year on these to replace them about every 3 months, if I can do annually for like $40-50/yr, that would be worth it to save me the hassle and hopefully protect the equipment a little better.
What systems do you guys like that might fit the bill? Don't mind spending a little too get it converted while I'm already at furnace replacement.
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