Main Vent replacement - Guidance Needed

Bigtunaishere

Hello, looking for some guidance. 
I'm looking to replace my main value, Vent-rite No. 4. 
But having a hard time determining the size I need. 1/4 or 3/8
I ordered a Gordon no 1 3/8inch but it's too big. I don't believe they sent me the wrong one but im not sure. The existing vent rite is small then the G18 3/8 but bigger than the 1/8 radiator vent. So I'm thinking it's 1/4 inch. Maybe
If that's the case, can I use a Gorton 1/4 straight D on it and call it a day? Or something else would be more appropriate?

Thanks
Ed

Danny Scully

Your second picture has your answer, it’s 1/4” 👍

How long is that main and what is the pipe size? 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Just buy a 3/8 x 1/4 bushing at the hardware store

Danny Scully

That wouldn’t help him @EBEBRATT-Ed, unless he got a 3/8” coupling and 1/4” nipple as well…at which point I would say get a 3/8” x 1/4” coupling and a 1/4” nipple. But let’s see if it’s sized right first. Main length and diameter @Bigtunaishere? 

Jamie Hall

As @Danny Scully says, the size of the fitting -- within broad limits -- has nothing helpful to do about the vent. The vent is sized based on the volume you are trying to vent, for main vents, or how fast you want the radiator to heat, for radiators, and then you use whatever combination of bushings and nipples and what have you to put it together.

Bigtunaishere

It's complicated form to me to explain. The valve is on the return side of the single pipe system. Measuring the total distance is roughly 60 feet to the valve on the return side. I believe it it by design as the boiler has two mains. On goes right to the large radiator in the living on the right for the fire place and then to the two in the master bedroom. Radiator in living room with thermostat so size 4 MoM. And the two in the bed room are cs. Quick quiet heat. To the left off the boiler is the rest of the house. First then second large living room radiator to the left of the fireplace the to the chilled all window sunroom with two rads with MoM C to clear the cold air quickly and quitely to the dining room to rads under each exterior wall window, furthest begin a large bay window. Followed by rads in the rear of the house for kitchen bathroom, hallways 10 feet off the bathroom Radiator, and finally the bedroom, which is furthest and always the coldest with a size D MoM. Kitchen, hall, and bath have size 6. 
I get even heating mostly but losing water daily.
Hence my changing of all the valves
New boiler installed last week, utica sfe-4125s, to replace a peerless wbv-04-150sp

I believe this part of the issue as I'm having zero luck reducing water loss with new rad values for those that seem faulty. 
Pictures attached. 

Bigtunaishere

@Jamie Hall @DanHolohan @Danny Scully @EBEBRATT-Ed

joshpjost

Oh no, copper NBP 

Steamhead

joshpjost said:

Oh no, copper NBP 

And it's 2-inch, but the manual calls for 2-1/2-inch. Seems to me boiler installers need to at least be capable of reading a manual.

@Bigtunaishere , can you break down the length of the steam mains? How ling is each individual main?

ethicalpaul

Just to clarify, the Gorton #1 is not 3/8. It has a 1/2" female thread and a 3/4" male thread.

Bigtunaishere

@ethicalpaul - ive double checked, Gorton does make a Gorton Air Eliminator No. 1. 3/8, which it is. If it was the 3/4 x 1/2 it would have threading on the inside of the pipe as well which this doesn't have according to them. 
 
So, It appears the vent-rite no 4 I'm trying to replace at 1/4 size vent.

So now I'm asking for help to see if I should keep the model G18 AE No1, but get some adapters and nipples like others have said or should I go with a Gorton Vapor equalizer size D or C because they come in 1/4 size. This midline vent is on the return line from the furthest run. 

Long Beach Ed

The Gorton D radiator vent has the same venting as the No. 1 main vent. I would just use that. And it's shiny.

Bigtunaishere

@Steamhead 6ft line off the boiler with one large rad on it, then a left turn 24feet run with 1 large rad, 1 med rad, and 2 small rads,  then left turn line along the back of house is 28 feet with 5 rads on it 2 small 2 med, 1 large. Then a 180 turn line back ris 28 feet to the Vent and then down the return line.

Bigtunaishere

@joshpjost what does copper NBP mean and why it is bad?

Long Beach Ed

The "Near Boiler Piping" is copper, which includes the risers and header, equalizer and virtually all steam-carrying pipes. Generally all boiler manufacturers' installation instructions forbid the use of copper piping in this area and its use can void the equipment warranty for damage it has effected.

There are several reasons for this:
1. Thermal expansion of copper is much greater in copper than steel and combined with the twisting exerted on those pipes breaks the solder joints, causing leaking.
2. Electrolysis between the differing metals rapidly accelerates corrosion of the metals.
3. It adversely impacts the longevity and durability of the job.
4. It is poor workmanship.

You may wish to refer to the manufacturer's installation manual in your possession or on the maker's Web site, or call the maker to verify their requirements, and have the installer remedy his tawdry "oversight".

You deserve the job for which you paid.

...Oops, sorry Josh, I see the question was directed to you. I think you'll concur.

Bigtunaishere

@Long Beach Ed Ed thank you for the information. -Ed

ethicalpaul

Bigtunaishere said:

@ethicalpaul - ive double checked, Gorton does make a Gorton Air Eliminator No. 1. 3/8, which it is. If it was the 3/4 x 1/2 it would have threading on the inside of the pipe as well which this doesn't have according to them.

My apologies, I imagined I saw threads in there!

Steamhead

Bigtunaishere said:

@Steamhead 6ft line off the boiler with one large rad on it, then a left turn 24feet run with 1 large rad, 1 med rad, and 2 small rads,  then left turn line along the back of house is 28 feet with 5 rads on it 2 small 2 med, 1 large. Then a 180 turn line back ris 28 feet to the Vent and then down the return line.

Wow, that's a lot of pipe, with a lot of air in it. Neither the Gorton #1 or D is enough. Somehow you need to get the bushing out of the top of the tee where the vent is, and install at least one Gorton #2.

Jamie Hall

At least a Gorton #2. However -- unless the vents are leaking steam, that isn't why you are losing water. It would be a good idea to look around and see where you actually have leaks.

Bigtunaishere

@Jamie Hall yea I've been. But, not finding any water anywhere along the system. All vents check and if questioned replaced. Found water damage from a leak around the tub, but with kids and all the baths I'm not surprised about that. 
So still on the hunt. Driving my wife nuts with all the checking and disappearing to the basement while the system is running to see if I can stop anything. Then after listening for drips and such. Nothing. No wet spots or moisture. 

Long Beach Ed

The best way to find leaks in the system is to remove and plug the air vents and fill the system with an air compressor.

Jamie Hall

Leaks are tricky. If it is a stem leak -- a small one (doesn't take much) you simply won't see it -- the steam just disappears and adds a little humidity. Similarly, if it is a condensate leak on a warm pipe, you won't usually see that either -- it evaporates, and since it is very pure water (distilled, after all!) it won't leave a handy deposit.

Even if there is a drip, it's surprising how a small drip adds up -- one drip in ten seconds is somewhere around a gallon a day!

First place to look is all the radiator shutoff valves -- they often leak a little steam around the valve stem, and equally often just slightly tightening the packing nut works wonders. Another common enough spot is the unions between the valves and the radiator spuds, but be careful with those. If they are leaking at all, it's best to loosen and clean and reset them, as the nuts don't actually do the sealing -- and can crack.

JohnNY

Wow. That boiler is a mess. So's the venting but the boiler is special.

Long Beach Ed

JohnNY said:

the boiler is special.

Love ya.

jhewings

I found a leak this week at an original radiator shut off valve at the bonnet. There was some steam coming from where the bonnet screws into the valve body, visible in a fairly dark room with a flashlight. That one was easy because it was on the first floor and it was leaking enough to make a small wet spot on the basement floor below, and water visible on the elbow under the basement ceiling. I was able to loosen the bonnet with a crescent wrench and my foot. Pipe dope was applied. I had noticed an increase in make up water required at the boiler.

Danny Scully

Steamhead said:

Somehow you need to get the bushing out of the top of the tee where the vent is, and install at least one Gorton #2.

If 1/8” can handle 2.5 CFM at 3 oz, 1/4” could actually work. So rather than remove the bushing, get a 1/2” x 1/4” coupling for the Gorton 2, and a 1/4” nipple. 

neilc

Bigtunaishere said:

do both those verticals drop down to a wet return?
if so you need a second proper vent there,
or is this a loop seal?
I also saw a return dropping near the boiler,
and no vent,
don't nipple or bush down, nipple and bush up to 1/2 inch, and get that gorton mounted, or build an antler with multi vents for each and any location,