Peerless Pinnacle Oil Boiler PO-70A has water in the concentric venting system

Mar79

We bought a house last September and ran our furnace without incident. This year we noticed that it was leaking and that has led me down a rabbit hole learning more about furnaces than I ever thought I would know. For context I am a complete novice on anything related to furnaces or home heating.

For background, we have a high efficiency oil burning furnace, Peerless Pinnacle Oil Boiler PO-70A. No one in my area services Peerless which has turned into an issue. The closest person to use who services the Peerless brand is over 2 hours away and he said he has never worked on this particular system. Everyone I have talked to locally has said they have never seen one of these in actual use. At this point I have accepted the fact that we are just going to have to pay for a new furnace.

However, I would like to know why this thing is leaking and if it is a safety concern. The furnace heats radiators in the house if that makes any difference. We are going to just switch to a gas furnace but permitting to a dig a pipeline and then installation will likely take somewhere between 4-8 weeks, which is a majority of the winter. We currently have our furnace set to 65 and are using our new wood insert to heat our first floor and mini splits to heat the 2nd floor. With the holidays coming up we are going to be gone some days and I am also worried about what we should do regarding leaving furnace running with mini splits on to try to help v. turning off the furnace and worrying about pipes freezing. We would be gone 3-4 days over Christmas and about a week over new years.

Ok for the actual issue. We discovered our furnace was had water leaking from I think the concentric sample port adapter of the ventilation system (1) on the image. The first guy who looked at it said a seal must have gone bad and tried to put sealant around it. I don’t think that was the case as I eventually learned there should be absolutely no water in any of the Peerless Concentric Venting. By the time we had our most recent guy in here he said that water had filled up to almost the T-bend (called the concentric clean-out tee or (2)) in the image). He checked what he could including the Concentric sample port adapter (1), the concentric clean-out tee (2), and the concentric adjustable length pipe (3) and said he could find no cracks. His best guess was that there was a crack somewhere in the piping up the chimney.

After reading a variety of forum posts about high efficiency burners in general and the owners manual it seems like gas is vented out by the inner tube of Peerless’ concentric piping and air is sucked in through the outer pipe. It seems like there is some issue that is creating the condensation that is then running down the pipe from the chimney and then pooling at what I think is called a vent adapter (6) in image and leaking out where it connects with the sample port adapter (1) in image. However, this is only a guess.

I have only notice leaking while the furnace is running. And with our current heating set up or when it warms up a bit all of the water that has leaks dries out and I do not see any other leaks, so it seems like it only leaks when running. The last person who came and looked at the system did CO checks from the area around the concentric sample port adapter (1) in image and from I think its called the air inlet hose (17) in image, and was not getting any dangerous readings.

Has anyone worked with this brand or anything similar that could give me insight and advice on what is going on here and how to approach this situation?

GGross

Ok so it looks like you have a polypropylene concentric vent system, I am going to assume that your boiler is a condensing boiler even though it does not look like one, and I haven't personally seen any condensing boilers that are oil fired. In any condensing boiler the flue gases will condense and create water called "condensate" this condensate is acidic must be managed. There should be a location where it is supposed to drain from the boilers heat exchanger, if the condensate is backing up into the flue then the condensate drain must be plugged with something.

Need to confirm a few things, those vent systems cannot terminate into the chimney, the pipe must go up the entire length of the chimney, and a separate termination fitting used at the chimney outlet

Your contractor can confirm if the flue pipe is cracked or not quite easily, just test the incoming air test port with an analyzer to see if there are flue gases in your intake pipe

Confirm that you are properly managing the condensate, in the manual there should be a section about condensate, it should show drain locations etc I just found the manual online, a few pages after the section you posted has the info on condensate removal.

Finally don't let anyone put anymore RTV on that vent pipe (the red stuff they used to seal it) Whoever did that had no idea what they were dealing with. If someone can show you a crack in the flue system (that's the interior pipe) they may silicon it with RTV as a temporary safety fix, but the affected section of pipe needs to be replaced and sent for warranty. It will be more difficult to inspect this pipe after coating the intake connections with RTV. Cracks in polypro do not just happen, something causes it. That being said I have seen installations of concentric poly pipe where the internal pipe was not correctly fitted and was allowed to leak into the intake

STEVEusaPA

Holy hackery!! I'd call Peerless. Tell them what you have, tell them you want the rep for your area. Send the rep these pictures and ask him/her for their best contractor in your area to resolve this mess.
Although it's unicorn-like (rarely seen), if they were sold in your area, someone should know how to service them.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I agree with @STEVEusaPA

Call Peerless and ask for help. No need to throw out a perfectly good system because someone botched the flue install.

Post your location someone may know someone in your area

Mar79

GGross,

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

From my understanding this is a condensing oil boiler.

I know where the condensate is and drains from. There was water in it and it was below drain level and there is a condensate pump which pulls it out of there and into a drain. I am assuming whenever they installed that they are draining it in the correct way. Those were both looked at and looked to be working. However, I cannot say for sure if the "condensate removal system" was checked for a plug, and I am not sure where that is on my system lookin through the owners manual. I will try to take a second look after work.

I am pretty sure this pipe goes through the chimney and vents at top out of the house. I am not sure if the incoming air test port was analyzed but he used some sort of emission device to check two areas on furnace and neither were showing flu gases being emitted.

These pictures are about a week old and the RTV was removed when the most recent technician was looking at it.

Mar79

STEVEusaPA

Unfortunately Peerless was not very helpful. They just told me to go to their website and type in my zip code to find the nearest certified technicians. The closest one to me is 2 hours away and he has not worked on this type of system. The other ones were closer to 3 hours. I have talked to about 5 different companies in my area and all of them have said that they remember when these kinds of oil furnaces were popular maybe around 2008-2010 but then just disappeared from being sold, at least locally. The couple of technicians I talked to all basically said they did not even know anyone in the area who might know what they were doing to find the issue and service.

I just looked at the materials that came with the furnace and there was a limited lifetime one but it only was applicable to the original purchaser which was the prior owner, so unfortunately I don't think that will extend to me.

GGross

@Mar79

It certainly sounds like a condensate blockage issue. This should not be terribly difficult for a competent tech to figure out regardless of whether they are familiar with the exact boiler. Someone who knows oil to confirm the unit is firing safely, but also knows condensing flue systems should be able to figure it out.

I would start at the condensate pump and work backwards through the flow of condensate to find the problem. Confirm that the condensate pump is turning on, and check for blockages in the drain back to the boiler, and then through the flue system. Maybe your condensate pump has just failed?

Mar79

@GGross

Ok thank you. I will look into that. The condensate pump is working, that was tested out yesterday and i saw it turn on and drain. From what I could tell there was water going into pump while running, but maybe it was a partial blockage?

Jamie Hall

Just to reassure you a little -- the condensate is normal; they are called condensing boilers for a reason. What isn't normal is where it is draining and dripping -- and any competent tech. familiar with condensing boilers of any make should be able to troubleshoot the problem and fix it. And any tech. familiar with oil burners should be able to make sure your burner is operating properly. Probably the same person. Doesn't have to be a Peerless guy.

GGross

@Mar79

Yes possibly. I would follow that drain back and confirm that everything is clear, according to the manual there is no built in trap, the installer was to make one out of the drain line, confirm the trap is installed correctly. If you can confirm the drain is clear I would start checking the vent system, make sure that condensate is not collecting in it. The pitch should be such that it would drain back toward the start of the flue system. If the condensate begins to collect in the flue it would eventually overflow and dump all at once which could cause your issue. I wouldn't think this is the issue as those elbows should be 87 degree to allow for correct pitch and they seem to be supported, but perhaps they started sagging slightly. Call a tech to do this if you are uncomfortable with it

Mar79

@GGross

I think I found the relevant image in the booklet and marked it up. I am guessing the water condenses where i have the down arrows and collects in this pan where I have a star. I know where that is and every time I have looked it, it has been mostly dry or slightly wet. So to test this I assume I can just dump some water in the pan and see how effectively is drains and if it does not drain will there is probably a drain in the area where i have the circle. If it seems to drain fine and the condensate pump, the diamond turns on, the issue would not be with a plugged condensate. Does that sound correct?

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to help me with this

GGross

@Mar79

Yes that would be a simple test to make sure that pan is draining freely.

Mar79

@GGross

Ok, I think I finally understand what you mean by you saying that “condensate is backing up into the flue”. I tested out the hose from the condensate trap to the pump that pushes the condensate to the drain itself. It was not fully clogged and the pump would kick once it got to be about ¾ full but it definitely drained pretty slowly and I think might not be at the angle it needs to drain fully, as it looked like there was still a thin layer of water still on the bottom of the trap once it stopped draining.

From what I have been looking at it seems like the body of the furnace sits on top of a metal sheet that covers the condensate trap and that on top of this sheet is also a vent for ventilation of the gas (both marked as red star on furnace body image). This essentially makes them one piece. A vent adapter is then placed around it and both of those (number 6 in original images posted) are then connected to the concentric port adapter (number 1 in image “furnace back”) which is then connected to the concentric clean out tie (number 2 in image “furnace back”) and then vented out through the chimney through the piping, all of this being known as the concentric vent piping (all of the numbers combined in image “furnace back”). This concentric venting piping consists of two pipes, an inner one made of polypropylene/stainless steel to carry out the gas, and a white outer one made of aluminum that allows for air flow to come in from the outside.

The furnace itself releases condensate into the condensate trap (image “condensate trap”) as well as I am assuming gas. The condensate is supposed to then release through the condensate fitting/condensate tubing/condensate neutralizer to the drain. I am guessing the gas is supposed to release through the black pipe that is attached to the body of the furnace (marked with a start on image “furnace body”) that then is supposed to vent out through the concentric vent piping, specifically the inner pipe.

When there is a blockage somewhere in the condensate drain fitting or condensate tubing (see image “condensate trap”) the water that would normally sit in the condensate trap that filters out to the drain starts releasing at a slower pace than it is being put in. When it gets too full it then ends up going up the black pipe that is attached to the body of the furnace (marked with a start on image “furnace body”). Because this black pipe is affixed to the inner pipe made of polypropylene/stainless steel of the Concentric Venting system but it is sealed only for gas and not meant to be water tight, the condensate then leaks through that seal and gets trapped between the inner pipe made of polypropylene/stainless steel and the white pipe made of aluminum (I tried to draw this with blue in image “condensate trap”)

Because that water is trapped there and has no where to drain, that is why the technician I had inspect the unit found water in the venting pipe up to almost the concentric clean out tee.

Does this fit with your reasoning on why you think a clogged condensate drain would cause water to be located in the concentric vent piping?

raybees41

Hi, good job detailing your boiler. To me it sounds as if you have a blockage of sorts in the condensate process. If no one has serviced the boiler in a while it could be that the condensate neutralizing tube may be the problem. It is possible that somebody did not use correct material and the limestone could have just all dissolved into a thick slurry causing the condensate to back up, very possible, most technicians should be able to look at that or find a gas heat technician, they are exposed to a lot of condensing products.