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Gorton air vent quality

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13

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  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,924
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    I buy Gorton #2s by the case...I've only had 2 or 3 bad ones out of the box.  Two had big dents that crushed down on the innards. The 3rd looked normal but was locked 🔒 closed...Mad Dog 🐕 
    Long Beach Ed
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    I agree with you dko but I wanted to give gorton the benefit of the doubt. The issue does seem to have resolved regardless or I think we’d have seen continuing reports. 

    Even complete gentlemen’s companies can have issues with their products of course.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • Waher
    Waher Member Posts: 251
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    Recently received a Gorton No.4 from Supply House and noticed the inside of the sealed Gorton bag had green dust. I washed off the vent and large clumps of green flushed out of the vent. I'm not sure what the heck the stuff was, looked like the tooth paste used at dentist offices, but it may be a good idea to wash out any new Gorton vents one buys to make sure whatever that stuff is doesn't migrate into a steam system.
  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 28
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    As I promised I completed my testing of vents that would not close and I will post the results and my observations later this month. I would like to point out why I am so concerned about the Gorton vent situation. Two years ago I had a plumber replace a G#1 vent that someone painted over. After he finished, the data logger showed no improvement in mains temperature. I found that the Gorton vent that he installed had no vent hole. I asked the plumber where did he get this from was it fake or counterfeit. He got it from a reputable supplier here in Brooklyn, NY and it looked legit.
    I attached a picture. This is an indication that not only was this vent not tested, but no one even did a visual inspection. See file with picture attached.
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    The file attached above is a Microsoft PowerPoint file for some reason, so here's an image file for everyone's convenience. This is a little disturbing since we are told that every vent is tested as part of the manufacturing process.


    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,672
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    The file attached above is a Microsoft PowerPoint file for some reason, so here's an image file for everyone's convenience. This is a little disturbing since we are told that every vent is tested as part of the manufacturing process.



    Yeah....
    Let's make fun of stuff made in China............

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaul
  • dabrakeman
    dabrakeman Member Posts: 552
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    The reason the vent did not close was the curved bimetal strip had poor placement. No matter how much heat was applied to it the vent would not close. Only when
    the bimetal strip was removed altered [bent] and placed back along with the float, would the vent close
    when heated to 160F or greater.

    Wonder how many of the components of the #2 vent Gorton makes themselves vs shipped in from outside suppliers. What kind of process control documentation does Gorton require from those suppliers. I would think the dimensions at a series of temperatures for the bimetal strip would have quite mature tolerances established by now and should just be a matter of enforcing them.

  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 28
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    I am new to the steam heating community. I have asked a number of people in the steam heating community about vent quality and performance and have gotten some response. I released this file not to attack any manufacturer or vendor but to make contractors aware of vent problems especially with radiators in apartments. Getting access to apartments is not easy. Especially in a COOP and more difficult when a shareholder or tenant complains to others on the board that the vent you just installed is hissing. [we are under 0.6psi]. This makes you look really bad. Also, when you have proportional venting, you are limited to vents that you can use. I spent $1,500 in plumbing to replace old mains vents and another $3,500 to replace vents in apartments. I had to test vents both Mains types and radiators in advance to avoid having to remove them later. I can't keep asking Supply House to replace them. So I have opened them up [Gorton #5,#6] and corrected the fault cleaned them and placed them back in service. I don't have the time for this and neither do any of you and I am nearly retired. These vent issues are giving steam heating a bad name. Will get back to you later.
    ChrisJethicalpaul
  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 28
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    Sorry about not having a picture. I found the Vent and took another picture. it is attached
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    It's OK I pulled the picture out for you, thanks for sharing it
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 28
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    As I promised February 5, I would get back to you all on this vent issue. I tested 32 Gorton radiator vents that were all purchased in the last 5 months mostly from Supply House and 1/4 from others. These vents all failed as soon as they were installed. There may be others that were installed that failed that I was not told of. Here are the results:


    1] G#5 had 3 pcs failed all would not close or remain closed at case temperature 160F
    2] G#6 had 26 pcs failed 24 would not close at case temperature 160F, Two would not pass air
    3] GC had 1pcs that would not close or remain closed at case temperature of 160F
    4] GD had 2 pcs that would not close or remain closed at case temperature of 160F

    Please note: Some of the vents were damaged during opening so that they could not be repaired. I had to make a test jig so that the vents could be opened and resealed without damage or burning my fingers.

    Please note: If a radiator vent does not close before 160F, it is letting more steam into the radiator than the person designing the system would want.

    I also tested 12 Hoffman #40 vents out of the box. Here are the results:

    1] One vent failed to close completely ate over 180F
    2] 11 pcs closed at a case temperature of around 140F
    3] I noticed that there is a clanging sound made when the cartridge holding the alcohol mixture flashed
    expanding the cartridge and forcing the pin to close the vent. In several cases this opening and closing
    would occur one to several times a minute.

    I also tested Gorton G#1 and G#2 mains vents. I will give a detailed account of this in another discussion
    that I will open with pictures of the test setup I used and an explanation of vent characteristics and requirements.

    STEAM DOCTOR
  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 28
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    I forgot to report that of the 32 that I opened here are the results:
    1] G#5 all were repaired and closed at 140F
    2] G#6 14 were repaired and closed at 140F
    3] GC one was repaired and closed at 140F
    4] Some were damaged when they were unsealed

    These units were tested 3 times on various radiators with and without master venting and put back in service or reserved for service.
    STEAM DOCTOR
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    Thanks for the summary. I'm interested in your group 2. What was the nature of the failure that prevented them from closing, and how was that repaired?
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 28
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    There are two reasons why vents will not close:

    1] There is a foreign substance or corrosion in the seat hole and pin or head preventing closure
    2] The bi metallic strip is in a position were the closing distance, which is the difference resting low temperature position of the head or pin and the closed position is greater than the bi mettalic strips expansion distance or the position needed to create enough closing force. I will go into this when I open another discussion involving testing vents. I got two G#2s from Supply House that were defective one was a replacement that I opened up and repaired.
    ethicalpaulSTEAM DOCTOR
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,967
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    Pretty sad.this whole business. Until a few years ago, Gorton was the absolute King of the Hill. Not anymore. Not by a long shot. Have not done any extensive research but I've had endless leak Steam from day one. What's a steam guy to do?
  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 855
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    This concerns me too.  We have been buying Gortons almost exclusively for over forty years.   Countless homes, apartment houses, and commercial buildings.   Not sure what to use instead?
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,203
    edited March 6
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    Anyone think of talking to the people in Cranford who make them? We've installed maybe 50 of them this winter with no problems. Maybe because we buy from a trade house?
    CLamb
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,672
    edited March 6
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    Anyone think of talking to the people in Cranford who make them? We've installed maybe 50 of them this winter with no problems. Maybe because we buy from a trade house?


    Do you feel Gorton is shipping their better stuff to small suppliers and their garbage to Supply house?
    Wouldn't that hurt the brand?


    I have not bought any vents in many years, and all of the Gorton's I did buy came from Supply House and were perfect. I also dealt with Gorton's support one time and they were also fantastic. But this had to be 10 years ago now or more.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,203
    edited March 6
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    Maybe the ones I buy are handled better in shipping? I know they don't go through the mail.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,672
    edited March 6
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    Maybe the ones I buy are handled better in shipping? I know they don't go through the mail.

    That's possible, but doesn't explain the completely missing hole on an obviously untested vent.

    That one is really surprising.

    Could most just be getting damaged during shipping and that one oddball was an extremely unlikely fluke? I have no idea.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Long Beach Ed
  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 28
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    I started a discussion "Vent Testing and repair" were I pointed out that I tested a Gorton G#2 that was sent to me last month as a replacement for one that had a detached float. I opened it up and tested it with the float carefully placed back into the Bi metallic strip. I attached a K type sensor to the strip. Placed it in a refrigerator and discovered that the float fell out of the contracting strip at 53 F. The vent was stationary.
    When I adjusted the strip so that it closed the vent at 140F and reduced the temperature, The float dropped out again but at 30F. Supply House is not at fault. The shippers and WHSE people are not at fault.

    ChrisJ
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    I did perform a freeze test on my opened Gorton #4 and even with the vent case at around 5F or so, it wasn't able to be jostled out of position...that was the same vent that arrived at my house with the pin out of the hole and the dent on it, so for that one at least, it seemed to be especially rough shipping treatment that got it (but that's speculation)
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    ChrisJ
  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 28
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    The Gorton #4 is not the same as a Gorton #2. There are two classes of Gorton Vents. The Mains bronze strait types and the right angled Chrome finished type radiator types. They have different Cresent bi mettalic strips. The G#2s are larger than the others. I have not had any success at getting G#5, G#6, GC or
    GD to open by impact. There does not appear to be enough mass to dislodge them if they are placed in the strip. The G#2s are a different story
    ChrisJ
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
    edited March 6
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    Yes I know they are different. But my #4 definitely came dislodged and it appeared by trauma. Just a data point for everyone.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 28
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    ethicalpaul, I do not know what you mean by trauma. I and other members on this site have dropped and thrown these vents and could not dislodge the pins. I have opened measured and inspected over 50 G#5, G#6, GC and GD vents which all use the same case and bimettalic strip arrangement as the G#4. In all cases I had to use both hands. One to press hard to get the extended end of the strip to touch the base of the case and then more pressure to deform it and the other hand to pull the pin out of the hole. In addition, the same was done to restore the pin to it's position on the strip. In one vent I could not get it out. If you have big fingers it is difficult to do this. I have a QA/QC background earlier in my career and statistically if they could be dislodged by banging them around, it would be verified. If anyone has successfully dislodged the pins in these vents please let me know.
    ChrisJ
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    The world is a very random place. As a QA engineer you must know this!

    My #4 vent came with a dent and with the pin dislodged from its hole in the bimetallic strip. I'm not the only one.

    Now it is possible that in manufacturing they mis-installed the float, and then coincidentally, the vent got thrown around at some point and received a dent in its case, but that's not where I would go for an explanation.

    Neither of us knows what happened, but my money is on the vent getting violently handled with a sudden deceleration that caused the pin to leave its "home" and wedge the float closed until I opened it and fixed it. You can bet the other way if you like!
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 28
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    I am not a QA engineer. I am an RF Engineer with QA QC experience in addition to design test and measurement in manufacturing and now at the end of my career in the service sector . I am certain that I know why your vent float was in it's condition, I just do not want to be the one to say it because I have made statements that some would consider critical of some manufacturers. When I was a young lad in the 1970s I followed auto racing. USAC NASCAR CANAM. There was a number of incidents when during races at racing speeds the wheels came off of cars. The pit crews were blamed. They were not doing anything differently than they had before. The engineers and tire people discovered that the crews were not at fault. The tire fasteners were not suitable for the vibrations and higher centripetal forces above 185 mph. Whenever I was given investigative duties I had a saying. "Trust no one suspect every one" and "what is obvious to you may not be to others"
    reggiBobCCLamb
  • Gordo
    Gordo Member Posts: 857
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    In regards to the Gorton #2, the story I relate is anecdotal and my experience only:
    Some time ago, we received a failed closed Gorton #2.
    I opened it up and saw the pin had come out of the bimetallic strip as others have noted.
    I put the pin back and soldered the unit back together, tested it with our steam vent tester and put it on my truck for stock.
    Sometime later, the unit accidentally fell out of my truck a distance of about two feet and hit the road (while still in its original box).
    It went into silent mode again.
    I had to open it back up to fix it again.
    Lesson learned, don't let them drop!
    I've also taken to putting a 55mm long piece of folded cardboard up the stalk and holding it in place with a plastic thread protector cap as a preventative measure until the the unit is used.

    https://youtu.be/rpi5HaZ4O04
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
    ChrisJethicalpaul
  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 28
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    Gordo, If you look at my post on March 6 in "Vent Testing and Repair" and in this discussion, I made it clear that the pin can become dislodged even if the unit is stationary if it reaches what I call the fall out temperature which varies depending on the vents low temperature position. You could place a #2 vent that is working OK on your WHSE shelf and a day later the pin is dislodged and no one touched it. So in some cases only dropping it can dislodge the pin but not all or even most. This is an issue for the manufacturer not the shipper or the end user. Also, There is a safer and less messy way to unseal those vents.
  • Gordo
    Gordo Member Posts: 857
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    @ARobertson13 : What is your safer & less messy way to unseal these vents? I'm all ears (& eyes).
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • realliveplumber
    realliveplumber Member Posts: 354
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    I am not a QA engineer. I am an RF Engineer with QA QC experience in addition to design test and measurement in manufacturing and now at the end of my career in the service sector . I am certain that I know why your vent float was in it's condition, I just do not want to be the one to say it because I have made statements that some would consider critical of some manufacturers. When I was a young lad in the 1970s I followed auto racing. USAC NASCAR CANAM. There was a number of incidents when during races at racing speeds the wheels came off of cars. The pit crews were blamed. They were not doing anything differently than they had before. The engineers and tire people discovered that the crews were not at fault. The tire fasteners were not suitable for the vibrations and higher centripetal forces above 185 mph. Whenever I was given investigative duties I had a saying. "Trust no one suspect every one" and "what is obvious to you may not be to others"

    Oooh, good for you.
  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 28
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    Gordo,

    I do not have time to do a video but I have pictures and instructions:

    To unseal Vents:
    1] Remove al pipe tape or sealant from vents to be tested. In the case of 1/8” radiator vents clean with alcohol
    and wipe vent treads with a cloth with thin coat of cutting fluid. Check to see if threads are damaged
    2] Attach Vent to the surface of hot plate .
    In the case of 1/8” vents screw the vent into hot plate 1/8” NPT tapped hole until the top of vent makes
    contact with surface. If the vent feels tight do not force it, the trends are damaged.
    In the case of 1/4 “, 1/2 “ and 3/4 “ straight vents. Insert screws into 2 of the 3 10-32 screws to the
    hot plate tapped holes. Place the vent up against the two screws. Then insert the third screw. Adjust the
    screw depth so that they hold the vent by the case lid cover only not the case
    3] Turn on the hot plate. Set the temperature to 550F or 290C
    4] When case temperature is at set temperature remove vent case from lid which is held in place by the
    screws In the case of radiator vents, 1/4 “ and 3/4 “ straight vents use a vice grip to attach to case and
    remove it by rocking it back and forth . In the case of large 1/2 straight vents, use Jersey gloves to rock
    the case off of the lid by holding the 1/2 “ connector.

    To Reseal Vents:

    1] Place lid on plate and make sure it is positioned properly so that when it attached it is right side up.
    Make sure that there is enough solder inside the lid surface to seal without leaking. Especially with
    radiator vents.
    2] Remove any solder from the edge of the case with a file
    3] Place the case on top of the lid.. Verify that it is properly lined up. You will not get it on completely
    straight
    4] Turn on hot plate. Set temperature to 550F or 290 C
    5] When case temperature is at set temperature, using force carefully place the case into the lid . For
    large vents use gloves. For others you can use either gloves or vice grips.
    5] Small vents may require that you add solder along the rim areas to get a good seal
    6] Turn off hot plate and remove after vent cools use a blower to cut time.
    Those G2s do give off paint fumes so I would not do this inside unless you have good ventilation.




    ethicalpaulCLambGordoWaher
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,284
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    I am not a QA engineer. I am an RF Engineer with QA QC experience in addition to design test and measurement in manufacturing and now at the end of my career in the service sector . I am certain that I know why your vent float was in it's condition, I just do not want to be the one to say it because I have made statements that some would consider critical of some manufacturers. When I was a young lad in the 1970s I followed auto racing. USAC NASCAR CANAM. There was a number of incidents when during races at racing speeds the wheels came off of cars. The pit crews were blamed. They were not doing anything differently than they had before. The engineers and tire people discovered that the crews were not at fault. The tire fasteners were not suitable for the vibrations and higher centripetal forces above 185 mph. Whenever I was given investigative duties I had a saying. "Trust no one suspect every one" and "what is obvious to you may not be to others"

    Oooh, good for you.
    @realliveplumber, sarcastic and antagonistic comments like this are not welcome here. We're all here to learn and picking fights and putting people down goes against everything we're doing here. Please follow site rules and be respectful of others.

    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    All good

    I am not a QA engineer. I am an RF Engineer with QA QC experience in addition to design test and measurement in manufacturing and now at the end of my career in the service sector . I am certain that I know why your vent float was in it's condition, I just do not want to be the one to say it because I have made statements that some would consider critical of some manufacturers. When I was a young lad in the 1970s I followed auto racing. USAC NASCAR CANAM. There was a number of incidents when during races at racing speeds the wheels came off of cars. The pit crews were blamed. They were not doing anything differently than they had before. The engineers and tire people discovered that the crews were not at fault. The tire fasteners were not suitable for the vibrations and higher centripetal forces above 185 mph. Whenever I was given investigative duties I had a saying. "Trust no one suspect every one" and "what is obvious to you may not be to others"

    I put my opened #4 in the freezer and took it out and tried to smack it around in various ways to see if I could make the pin dislodge, and I couldn't.

    In fact, I found the case is VERY prone to denting from such treatment (I was smacking it with a plastic screwdriver handle), and I now doubt that the original dent in my unit was involved in the original dislodgement from the factory (but I can't be sure).

    I wish you'd share your reason for why my vent float arrived dislodged, I don't think anyone will attack you. My current theory is it must have come that way from the factory (and was therefore never tested) but again I can't be sure.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • dabrakeman
    dabrakeman Member Posts: 552
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    (ethicalpaul) I wish you'd share your reason for why my vent float arrived dislodged, I don't think anyone will attack you. My current theory is it must have come that way from the factory (and was therefore never tested) but again I can't be sure.

    Unless I am reading wrong aren't both of you on the same page (@ethicalpaul and @ARobertson13) that the Gorton #2 main vent is indeed prone to handling dislodgment particularly at lower temperature but the other radiator application Gortons appear to not be(and thus their disengagement must be more related to manufacturing defect?
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
    edited March 9
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    We are on that same page. But he said he was certain he knew how mine had arrived that way, and I'm wondering what that reason is.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • CLamb
    CLamb Member Posts: 281
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    Why don't you folks who have done this amazing amount of research on the Gorton failures share this information with the manufacturer? I think they'd like to improve their processes and product. As well this will help everyone who buys and uses Gorton vents.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
    edited March 9
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    This has been mentioned several times over the last year. In fact, someone here on the forum said that they did contact them.

    Apparently in the past, their product was already improved and very highly thought of. It seems they might have "unimproved" it

    While I was messing around with my opened #4, I went ahead and boiled it and found it doesn't close. The bimetallic strip does move, but it doesn't fully seat the thingy into the hole.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    CLamb
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,835
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    @ARobertson13 , we were wondering what an RF engineer is. "Radio Frequency"?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,835
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    @robin

    Anyone think of talking to the people in Cranford who make them? We've installed maybe 50 of them this winter with no problems. Maybe because we buy from a trade house?

    I did. They are aware of this.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    CLamb
This discussion has been closed.