Germany goes for Heat Pumps

Paul Pollets

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/world/europe/germany-heat-pumps.html

Paul Pollets

One of the biggest problems facing the expansion in Germany is a dire lack of qualified mechanics to install heat pumps.

hot_rod

Certainly a movement across Europe. And the world.
I suspect German trade schools have identified the need for this new skill set, and are reacting.

https://www.iea.org/reports/heat-pumps

Hot_water_fan

The monobloc air to water units probably eliminate this skills gap yeah?

ethicalpaul

Moving heat instead of creating heat is obviously the thing that will save this planet if anything will.

Hot_water_fan

the reality people don't want to accept is current infrastructure cannot support the electrical demand of satisfying the pipe dream people have of getting off "fossil" fuel (oil/gas) and going all electric.

Maybe! Let's not think in black and white. Can we drop emissions by using hybrid systems and gently increase the load over a few decades? Absolutely.

MaxMercy

Air to air heat pumps are fine for mild climates, but when the temp drops below freezing, it takes a lot more energy to extract the heat. It eventually reaches the point (not sure of the temp) when pure resistance heating is more efficient. Ground loop types are far better but a lot more money to install, and I'm not sure how long either of these systems will last and what it takes in fossil fuel to recreate a replacement.

The biggest issue though is electricity. I want to make the planet greener as well, but I can't find any real information about the green cost of building and maintaining windmills and solar arrays. Some data says they pay off in short time and others say they never do. It's such a political football that getting data I can trust is a problem.

Short of inventing cold fusion, nuclear power seems the only real way to generate enough electricity to move away from fossil fuels in any significant manner, and we know that won't be happening any time soon.

Hot_water_fan

Air to air heat pumps are fine for mild climates, but when the temp drops below freezing, it takes a lot more energy to extract the heat. It eventually reaches the point (not sure of the temp) when pure resistance heating is more efficient.

My heat pump works great well below freezing. Unclear where the COP < 1 point is, maybe negative 20? Plenty of heat pumps work into the negative teens - so it's a small slice of the time for even the coldest locations.

Derheatmeister

Paul Pollets said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/world/europe/germany-heat-pumps.html

This is why Viessmann invested 50.000.000 euro in building a Plant in Greece that will produce Heatpumps..
Lots of air to water systems being implemented..
Next years ISH should be very Interesting with the EU trying to reduce the Russian Oil Dependance.

ethicalpaul

ron said:

hot_rod said:

Certainly a movement across Europe. And the world.

the reality people don't want to accept is current infrastructure cannot support the electrical demand of satisfying the pipe dream people have of getting off "fossil" fuel (oil/gas) and going all electric. Just in the US we're already seeing the consequences, I've posted recent news articles about power companies controlling residential smart thermostats when the electric grid was being burdened. That along with electric vehicle charging burden and those similar articles this past summer. The signs are there.

I still think Biden should mandate overweight people pedal stationary bikes to charge the grid in times of peak demand, I mean that could be a win win.

Well they aren't all getting installed today. Look how the grid has changed in the last 50 years and think ahead.

HomerJSmith

"You can always tell a German, you just can't tell him much." old joke.

Why are they worried. They don't have any Nat Gas and soon won't have any electricity.

The Steam Whisperer

Making building more efficient generally is the biggest bang for the buck... at least here the very wasteful USA where our per capita energy comsumption is about double that of Germany. To me the next step is hybrid systems....this should be way less costly than tearing out complete systems and installing complte new systems that use massive amounts of electricity and are least efficient when they are needed the most. Combining building efficiency improvements and only using heat pump technology in more moderate weather and then switching to conventional gas burning systems in extreme weather will likely reduce the direct emissions of a building about 90% ( from my back of the napkin calculations) but only require about 1/2 the investment in new equipment.

Jamie Hall

There are the grid problems -- which aren't going to go away anytime soon (Switzerland is contemplating banning the use of electric vehicles -- not enough power available). But there is another problem: just exactly who is going to foot the bill for Joe Sixpack and his wife Sue, who have just barely enough money to eat? It's all very fine for a celebrity to go jetting off in their private chariot to present a speech on all this -- but...

Hot_water_fan

Making building more efficient generally is the biggest bang for the buck... at least here the very wasteful USA where our per capita energy comsumption is about double that of Germany. 

Only to a point - it wouldn’t surprise me that Germans greatly overpay for efficiency when they could just pay for energy. Triple pane windows are a great example of wasteful efficiency. Diminishing returns exist! That said, obviously some US practices are wasteful and this is why we need @The Steam Whisperer

Ha @Jamie Hall from these Sixpack’s, we’re saving a bunch ditching gas. Don’t miss those bills! 

HomerJSmith

You need to read this!
https://www.dollarcollapse.com/a-warning-which-we-will-ignore/

As my Dad said, more than once, "Piss poor planning leads to piss poor performance."

As Margaret Thatcher said, "Americans always do the right thing, but only after they do all the wrong things first."

fentonc

At least with a heat pump you can get electricity from whatever the most economical/available fuel source is - this is motivated as much by a desire to reduce greenhouse gas emissions as it is by a specific and urgent desire to reduce their dependency on expensive and volatile gas and diesel imports.

ethicalpaul

HomerJSmith said:

As Margaret Thatcher said, "Americans always do the right thing, but only after they do all the wrong things first."

Well that was Churchill but at least they’re both British!

ChrisJ

How many threads are there going to be with the same people arguing the same thing?

Robert_25

The Steam Whisperer said:

Making building more efficient generally is the biggest bang for the buck... at least here the very wasteful USA where our per capita energy comsumption is about double that of Germany. To me the next step is hybrid systems....this should be way less costly than tearing out complete systems and installing complte new systems that use massive amounts of electricity and are least efficient when they are needed the most. Combining building efficiency improvements and only using heat pump technology in more moderate weather and then switching to conventional gas burning systems in extreme weather will likely reduce the direct emissions of a building about 90% ( from my back of the napkin calculations) but only require about 1/2 the investment in new equipment.

I agree. I frequent an alternate heating forum, and I continue to be amazed at the number of people that come looking for advice to reduce heating costs on an uninsulated house. Clearly there is still a lot of low hanging fruit.

PC7060

ethicalpaul said:

HomerJSmith said:

As Margaret Thatcher said, "Americans always do the right thing, but only after they do all the wrong things first."

Well that was Churchill but at least they’re both British!

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

Attributed to Winston Churchill 

The Steam Whisperer

Robert_25 said:

The Steam Whisperer said:

Making building more efficient generally is the biggest bang for the buck... at least here the very wasteful USA where our per capita energy comsumption is about double that of Germany. To me the next step is hybrid systems....this should be way less costly than tearing out complete systems and installing complte new systems that use massive amounts of electricity and are least efficient when they are needed the most. Combining building efficiency improvements and only using heat pump technology in more moderate weather and then switching to conventional gas burning systems in extreme weather will likely reduce the direct emissions of a building about 90% ( from my back of the napkin calculations) but only require about 1/2 the investment in new equipment.

I agree. I frequent an alternate heating forum, and I continue to be amazed at the number of people that come looking for advice to reduce heating costs on an uninsulated house. Clearly there is still a lot of low hanging fruit.

Yes, just drive down any street in any town or city after a snowfall and look at all the buildings where the snow is melting off the roofs. The waste is so obvious, yet the owners continue to complain about their high fuel bills and try to blame everyone else. I plan to delve in deeper, but I have done some preliminary study and have found that nearly every residential building in Chicago ( single family and 3 story multifamily), has the potential to reduce energy usage by a 1/3 to 1/2 with conventional technology measures that pay back in weeks to under 7 years. Insulation and air ceiling top floor ceilings, low e glass storm windows, and properly installed and sized HVAC probably top the list. The first two have already been shown to reduce heating needs about 50% in Chicago bungalows, and the last we regularly see reductions of 25 to 50% with improved steam heating systems.

Here in Illinois the Citizen' Utility board is constantly going after the electric companies, yet my electric bill for my home is about the same as it was 30 years ago. We've simply upgraded our efficiency.... mainly lighting for year round savings adding low e-storms where we had old wood storms ( knocked down our cooling usage about 1/3) and use a cast iron hot water boiler that draws very little electricity to operate. Now our gas supplier... People's Gas, is another story.

Sal Santamaura

Jamie Hall said:

...just exactly who is going to foot the bill for Joe Sixpack and his wife Sue, who have just barely enough money to eat? It's all very fine for a celebrity to go jetting off in their private chariot to present a speech on all this...

If there were any rationality in the world, those jetting off would be much more heavily taxed and the taxpayers would subsidize "Joe and Sue Sixpack." But then the "taking care of the least of these" would actually mean something, and we can't have that.

ChrisJ said:

How many threads are there going to be with the same people arguing the same thing?

As many as those who refuse to accept reality, transition their businesses to what's coming and are dismayed that what has been their area of expertise is going away come on here to interject.

Robert O'Brien

German is grid is 40% renewable and they're increasing coal usage to offset the loss of Russian NG.

Long Beach Ed

They drank the Kool-Aide. I'll pay a little more to have reliable, uninterruptible heat that's not dependent on replacement parts that have to come by overnight mail. I'm willing to pay that cost for dependability.
And I never lost a night's sleep on a repair. Put a price on that.

hot_rod

Here is where you can get current info. Today for example.
Germany still generates more electricity then it uses.

France will be more than happy to sell more nuke power to Germany, should it come to that. The grid, like everywhere else may be the bottleneck, not acquiring the power.

I suspect France has many European countries knocking on their door for their nuke power plants

ChicagoCooperator

I would suggest this 37 year old book when looking at efficiency and how we can improve it, especially in new construction (it's out of date - most new Swedish houses now use exhaust air heat pumps for hydronic heat or district heating for what little heating needs they have): https://www.osti.gov/biblio/5585578

hot_rod

https://www.foxbusiness.com/energy/five-year-engineering-feat-germany-pulled-off-months