Steam two pipe Radiators not heating properly , some weird sounds

JoshP

mattmia2 said:

It could be either. Try like a gallon of water. If it is trapped water it will pour through. If it is debris it will fill up the pipe. My strong suspicion is that there is a lateral in the supply below the floor that has the wrong pitch

No change. So I’m thinking of pulling the insulation off the pipes where the rad supply offshoot comes from the main pipe to get a better look at the pitch from main to the already exposed supply near the vertical riser. Or should I try to pull up the floor near the rad to see what the last leg of the supply looks like from where it goes from inside the wall over to and up through the floor joist? Anyone think I should plan on pulling these old pipes apart from the main to the vertical? Does it have to get to that point? I find it interesting that both second floor rads are exhibiting the same symptoms but are off diff main and diff returns. 

neilc

I think the basement is ok especially with the extra blocking on the girder, but give it a good look just the same,
if there's a horizontal above the first floor to the second floor, that would be my bet,
(and you may have made this worse when you blocked up the basement, where did that basement elevation change go, upstairs?)
did you try lifting those 2 rads?
gently get them as high as possible before breaking into a ceiling or floor,

mattmia2

The main may have moved up when a boiler was changed or something pushing the connection to a lateral in the floor/ceiling up and pitching it the wrong way.

If you do have to go with the open procedure, smooth plaster is a lot easier to patch than a wood floor.

JoshP

neilc said:

I think the basement is ok especially with the extra blocking on the girder, but give it a good look just the same, if there's a horizontal above the first floor to the second floor, that would be my bet, (and you may have made this worse when you blocked up the basement, where did that basement elevation change go, upstairs?) did you try lifting those 2 rads? gently get them as high as possible before breaking into a ceiling or floor,

I lifted up and blocked up the vertical supply and return in the basement at the 90 elbow before the pipes run up through the wall . I had the rad disconnected from both supply and return. Then I blocked up the rad at the four feet (with a pitch on opposite end) and matched up with the new height of the pipes for the connections. Im pretty sure I can’t get the pipes any higher than they are now. 

JoshP

mattmia2 said:

The main may have moved up when a boiler was changed or something pushing the connection to a lateral in the floor/ceiling up and pitching it the wrong way. If you do have to go with the open procedure, smooth plaster is a lot easier to patch than a wood floor.

As far as opening up the pipes I meant the ones in the basement from the main to the riser before it goes up into the wall to the second floor. The other idea was to pull up some of the floor behind the rad which would be hidden by the metal rad cover and see what the pipe routing looks like from where the vertical pipes go from being in the wall cavity to coming up out of the floor about 8 inches in front of the wall/baseboard. 

When I poured the water in the supply pipe with the valve off I listened carefully to how it sounded and it didn’t sound to me like it met a restriction close by. Sounded like it dropped 10 ‘ fast.

neilc

ok, but if you pushed up the basement by a 2x4+,
well you don't have a 2x4 under the rad,
so there's still a difference there between the 1st and second floor,
disconnect the rad again, and just pull up on the pipes for all you got, gently,
or let off on the basement blocking by half (?)

JoshP

Ok so far I’ve had a chance to run a scope camera down the supply pipe at one of the second floor rads. I removed the shut off valve and could only go down the pipe about 30” or so to where there appears to be a 90 elbow routing the supply over through the floor joist area to inside the wall cavity. After a short horizontal There appears to be another 90 elbow to route the pipe vertical down inside the wall to the basement. I did not see any standing water or blockage but couldn’t see very far inside anyway . 

Being the both my second floor rear bedroom rads are both slow to heat and exhibit the same symptoms (steam inside supply pipe fighting to move) would it be possible the steam is condensing inside the vertical supply since it’s not insulated inside the wall cavity going from basement to second floor ? Or is my problem more likely in that floor joist section of pipe ? 

ethicalpaul

All my verticals are in basically uninsulated spaces and they heat quickly.

my one “slow/gurgling” radiator was due to a low spot in the basement where it goes into the wall

neilc

JoshP said:

Being the both my second floor rear bedroom rads are both slow to heat and exhibit the same symptoms (steam inside supply pipe fighting to move) would it be possible the steam is condensing inside the vertical supply since it’s not insulated inside the wall cavity going from basement to second floor ? Or is my problem more likely in that floor joist section of pipe ? 

remember you said you blew in the open supply line,
and it blew back at you? do I have that correct?
you have to have a trapped pocket of water somewhere there on those 2 supplies,
consider opening the ceiling / wall where you saw that next 90 with the inspection camera,

mattmia2

Either trapped water or there is sediment that got moved and deposited when the system was flooded. part of why i say try pouring a couple gallons of water down there, either show it is clogged or flush it out.

JoshP

Thanks I will be opening up some of the floor to get a better look and the pipes. I may try flushing more water down the supply too. I’ll post back results. 

mattmia2

I'd try flushing water through with a hose before cutting in to the floor. I'd cut in to the ceiling below because plaster is easier to patch than flooring

JoshP

mattmia2 said:

I'd try flushing water through with a hose before cutting in to the floor. I'd cut in to the ceiling below because plaster is easier to patch than flooring

Thanks. Yes will flush first and see what happens. Ceiling would be in the kitchen. Floor would be hidden behind rad cover so I’m going into the floor first.