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Frequent Delta T Lockouts

jpc36
jpc36 Member Posts: 15
in Domestic Hot Water
Delta T Lockout and "Sensor Drift" are reoccurring problems. MY S/R reading at the time was 70 degrees for both when I had to "reset". Happens way too often (Latest on a Nov. 65 degree day). Every pro that has examined out install, including the mfg. tech folks agree that their reps did a "botch job". I'm wondering given the age of our home (170 years with fin tube piping), that the return temp drops too quickly and the pressure of the return is too low?

Comments

  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 902
    Some critical details are missing.   Based on your comments I suspect inadequate flow.  Most of the time it's due to piping,  but occasionally due to inadequate pump capacity. 
  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 902
    I'm sorry, I just realized your problem is with a dhw maker.  Ignore my post
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,611
    The model of the appliances and some pictures would really help.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    mattmia2SuperTech
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15
    To Scott...No you are dead right, many details, too many to list are left out. We ARE talking about a Mod-Con, brand new boiler whose S/R was piped wrong. Pumps in the wrong place, not a big enough pump in the flow (S/R Loop) it goes on and on. No Lo-Water shut off in the loop according to code. Even the Mfg. is figuring out ways to distance themselves from the mess their sole rep in our area constructed. My first step is to solve the problem. My next step is to insure that these people never install another boiler.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,924
    It sounds like there isnt enough flow to absorb the heat of the burner at minimum fire. Cold return temps aren't a problem for mod cons, too little flow is. In most cases primary secondary piping is recommended to maintain the minimum flow. If there isnt enough flow or load from the system even with primary secondary high return water temps could be an issue.

    The model/brand of boiler and pictures of how it is piped would help. If it is wrong you will need to fix it for the boiler to function.

    After it locks out everything will cool to ambient and supply and return temps will be the same. Are you saying 70 f or 70c?
    GGross
  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 902
    @jpf321 ok, now it makes a little more sense. 

    First, in my area "reps" almost never indtall equipment (boilers, pumps,  controls, etc).  In NJ the reps simply represent the products.   They all help on jobs when necessary, sometimes over the phone and other times in person.   In NJ almost any heating contractor can install almost any brand of boiler (I can only think of one or two exceptions).

    Second a few photos from five or six feet back might be helpful. 

    Third, I know you don't want to hear this, but you might want to consider hiring a heating contractor and cutting your losses.  Based on your description,  the installer might want to stay away from condensing boilers.  On the other hand, maybe the contractor did not read the installation instructions and may be able to fix his mistakes. 
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15
    To Scott & Mattmia2...I think you are both right and coming from the world of finance I know when one is stuck with a bad position, one cuts their losses ASAP and moves on. MY wife doesn't see it that way, but eventually she'll get sick of a brand new boiler not functioning properly. I'd like to rip it out and hire a real boiler guy to come in and reinstall. Hey, it's only MY money. I'll try and get some phots off so you can see it. I really appreciate it and please, don't hold back. I KNOW I got ripped off by a bunch of knuckleheads.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,924
    If you try to make it work with incorrect piping long enough you could damage the boiler, then you need to fix the piping and a new boiler.
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15


    To Scott & mattmia2 hope this gives you a sense...Shot from IDW Angle


  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 1,066
    you need to try and get
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15
    I notice that the cover to the boiler is resting on the return coming from the IDWH, which is priority call in my system, with 2 other zones, upstairs and downstairs. Fin-Tube installed by previous owner mostly on outside walls of a non-insulated house built by 1850 Farmers.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,924
    How about a straight on picture, ones where you can see the top connections and another the bottom connections
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15


    My Boiler---JPC36
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15
    had to get bolt guy to drain system after pipe fitting in fin tube upstairs came loose from ice storm in march.
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15
    **** ???? Right ?
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15
    Boiler is the the item in top left
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 1,066
    OMG ****. Why are the manufacturers rep being blamed for this job? Did the manufacturer come to your house and install this boiler?

    Did they forget to install an expansion tank. I don't see an expansion tank in the pic.

    This is a scrap job. Need to start over. Ask for your money back. This looks like something a homeowner would do, not a contractor.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,924
    My bet is that there is a period where the zone valves are closed and there is a call firing the boiler so it is deadheading a circualtor and there is no flow. I can't trace the piping but although a huge mess, i'm not convinced it wouldn't provide adequate flow if the controls are sequenced correctly.
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15
    The Expansion tank is behind the board on lower right...An odd place to put it, but given other problems. I am aware of how unprofessional this job was and I also have to keep I mind I live at the end of a State Trail in a small town. These guys work for an Uber-wealthy guy down at the beginning of our road and came highly recommended by the town's top architect. So much for references, eh ?!!!
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,924
    edited November 2022
    Can you take another one with the light off the the left somewhere, i need to see what is going on behind the light, I can't figure out what that top circulator is doing. Also a picture that captures all of the bottom of the piping.
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15
    PS...The last contractor who came here to fix the plumbing issue was so upset when he first came here, he called "Tech" on the phone and said: "This is how your reps are installing boilers in this part of the world !" (sent a photo from his iPhone) To which the head of tech said : "This is not how WE teach our guys to do this " ...All within ear shot of me who listening to this finger-pointing in person. Meanwhile, these guys are still the sole rep in our area for the company.
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15


    jpg boiler from left side
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,924
    Is the bottom circualtor and top circulator essentially piped in series with the heating loops?
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,924
    Which way is the arrow on that bottom circualtor? I think both circulators are trying to pump away from the boiler and in to the loops and there is no return from the heating loops.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,290
    jpc36 said:
    The Expansion tank is behind the board on lower right...An odd place to put it, but given other problems. I am aware of how unprofessional this job was and I also have to keep I mind I live at the end of a State Trail in a small town. These guys work for an Uber-wealthy guy down at the beginning of our road and came highly recommended by the town's top architect. So much for references, eh ?!!!
    Sorry but No Excuse. 

    Crap work is Crap work. 

    Make the owner aware of what his guys are doing. Get the factory  
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15
    I'm going to check...I spent 50 years of my life managing risk and knowing how to price it...Long hours, saw little of family. Pension managers were my primary clients, so most of this stuff is totally foreign to me. I'm getting a baptism by...lock outs ! I traded a Buderus with a cracked HE (horrible maintenance service for 11 years) for this disaster. Thank you for your time and interest.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,924
    Take a couple more pictures from a couple angles of what is happening just to the right of the boiler and under the right side of the boiler. I can't tell what is tying to what under there. I think they attempted to make a boiler loop with that top circualator but I can't figure out where those 2 pipes that tie in from the top manifold connect to the boiler. I think I need a picture looking from the right at the pipes under the boiler.
    GGross
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,285
    @mattmia2

    That's kind of what it looks like to me as well. It looks like they tried and failed at primary/secondary piping
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 1,066
    It is primary secondary but it looks like they didn't want to take any of the extra stock with them so they piped it in the long way until all the materials were used up. IDK LOL
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15
    Bottom pump to zone valves points >. Someone scribbled an "R" on the pipe, next to the pump above that and the arrow points <. The vertical pump arrow points "Up". I hope that explains something significant. Again, thank you so much for your input.
  • jpc36
    jpc36 Member Posts: 15



    Shot of my piping disaster from the left to right...S/R in full view. thanks guys for your comments

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