How long should a boiler take?

Dairon421

Hey guys I have two quick questions. How long should a boiler install take and is doing 5 boilers in a week possible? 
I'm a new boiler installer and I'm on performance based pay. My boss want me to do 1 boiler a day M-F . We have a demolition team that break down and remove the boiler.
Mind you we have office meeting everyday and don't leave until 9am. I don't get to the job until like 10:30am. Yes the demolition team remove the boiler but the old pipes are there and I have to break down all the old piping. Plus I have to get a parts list and this was my first time seeing the boiler so I'm walking in blind. The new boiler don't get to to job until like 11am or 12pm. I have two helpers but they don't have the same level of experience that I do. Also we do everything on the Install. We install all new vents,new thermostat,new near boiler piping and new water feeder.  
Is my boss being realistic?

ethicalpaul

No

mattmia2

Not if you want to do a professional, competent, functional install.

HVACNUT

That's just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. 
Not all installs are the same. You could have a one zone boiler in the back of a garage one day, and a basement behemoth with six zones the next.
I hope you don't do steam.
Why not an hourly wage based fairly on your (proven?) skills?

Dairon421

HVACNUT said:

That's just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. 
Not all installs are the same. You could have a one zone boiler in the back of a garage one day, and a basement behemoth with six zones the next.
I hope you don't do steam.
Why not an hourly wage based fairly on your (proven?) skills?

Yeah i do steam and hot water. I do majority steam because it's a lot in Detroit.  Do you think hourly is better than performance?

mattmia2

remind me to find out who you work for and make sure i don't recommend them...

Dairon421

T

Dairon421

T

offdutytech

Nope not in a day for a steamer if you want it done right. Maybe, maybe a hot water cast iron. Getting to the job that late and then making a material list eats up time. I've worked in many house in Detroit and would say at best day and half. More realistic is two full days. When you get into old pipes it just flat out takes time. If it's anything over 2" for steam your gonna be there a bit especially if you can't thread it on site. 

MikeAmann

mattmia2 said:

Not if you want to do a professional, competent, functional install.

With NO callbacks.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I agree with @offdutytech

No way. What about skimming the boiler?

I can't imagine what a steam install would look like done in one day.

A small hot water boiler is doable IF the job is looked at before hand and you have all the material on hand/


My advise..........look for a new employer that will value your skill

mattmia2

I'm pretty sure if they're licensed and they understand steam there is more work than they could ever do for them in metro detroit.

reggi

Just curious...how many teams does he have working structured the same way and is this a temporary schedule or permanent... and I'm going to guess you and your helpers stay until the job is finished??

SuperTech

I wouldn't work for anyone who does performance based pay. Does the customer get a discount if you get the job done faster? Taking a little time to do a high quality job is in the best interests of all parties involved with a boiler installation. 

dirtbike59

Sounds like the auto industry and the flat rate pay system. 

HVACNUT

Dairon421 said:

HVACNUT said:

That's just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. 
Not all installs are the same. You could have a one zone boiler in the back of a garage one day, and a basement behemoth with six zones the next.
I hope you don't do steam.
Why not an hourly wage based fairly on your (proven?) skills?

Yeah i do steam and hot water. I do majority steam because it's a lot in Detroit.  Do you think hourly is better than performance?

Yes, hourly is better for this type of employment. And bonuses for going above and beyond. 
With this there's the employer, the employee's, and the client. Two out of three are getting cheated. Guess which two. 

ChrisJ

I'm tired, so my eyes may be fooling me.

@Steamhead is that a properly piped Utica pictured above?

I've never seen one before.

GGross

@Dairon421

I have seen a couple of crews that operate like this down in Detroit (I see now you are located there as well) You ever get sick of it come on "up north" literally every contractor up here would hire you immediately, and we don't bid on price round here. We also don't have any steam so you can focus on forced water systems

ChrisJ

GGross said:

@Dairon421 I have seen a couple of crews that operate like this down in Detroit (I see now you are located there as well) You ever get sick of it come on "up north" literally every contractor up here would hire you immediately, and we don't bid on price round here. We also don't have any steam so you can focus on forced water systems

We need more steam guys doing good work and being paid properly.

Not less.

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

I'm tired, so my eyes may be fooling me.

@Steamhead is that a properly piped Utica pictured above?

I've never seen one before.

Yup- one for the books.

Dairon421

HVACNUT said:

Dairon421 said:

HVACNUT said:

That's just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. 
Not all installs are the same. You could have a one zone boiler in the back of a garage one day, and a basement behemoth with six zones the next.
I hope you don't do steam.
Why not an hourly wage based fairly on your (proven?) skills?

Yeah i do steam and hot water. I do majority steam because it's a lot in Detroit.  Do you think hourly is better than performance?

Yes, hourly is better for this type of employment. And bonuses for going above and beyond. 
With this there's the employer, the employee's, and the client. Two out of three are getting cheated. Guess which two.

How much on average should a boiler installer make a hour


This is a install I finished today.  I was there with our demolition team yesterday removing it which helps because I'm not walking in blind and got a good parts list

Big Ed_4

Back in my youth , it took 2-3 days , One day to cut out and disassemble the old boiler , bring down the parts for the new one , Another day to assemble and pipe in the new boiler , The last day to wire up connect the fire...

Dairon421

Big Ed_4 said:

Back in my youth , it took 2-3 days , One day to cut out and disassemble the old boiler , bring down the parts for the new one , Another day to assemble and pipe in the new boiler , The last day to wire up connect the fire...

How many people you had on the job?

GGross

ChrisJ said:

GGross said:

@Dairon421

I have seen a couple of crews that operate like this down in Detroit (I see now you are located there as well) You ever get sick of it come on "up north" literally every contractor up here would hire you immediately, and we don't bid on price round here. We also don't have any steam so you can focus on forced water systems

We need more steam guys doing good work and being paid properly.

Not less.




In my area we need more hot water guys doing good work and being paid properly

ChrisJ

GGross said:

ChrisJ said:

GGross said:

@Dairon421

I have seen a couple of crews that operate like this down in Detroit (I see now you are located there as well) You ever get sick of it come on "up north" literally every contractor up here would hire you immediately, and we don't bid on price round here. We also don't have any steam so you can focus on forced water systems

We need more steam guys doing good work and being paid properly.

Not less.

In my area we need more hot water guys doing good work and being paid properly

I guess we can agree on something.

We need more guys doing good work and being paid properly

GGross

@ChrisJ

to be honest at this point I would take mediocre work, but don't tell anyone else that!

ChrisJ

GGross said:

@ChrisJ

to be honest at this point I would take mediocre work, but don't tell anyone else that!

Unfortunately, I know exactly what you mean.

Mad Dog_2

With alot of the oil companies and some plumbing & Heating shops, that was the deal. Whatever it took to get it done in one day. I learned boilers with two of Long Island's Best Heating guys, when we all worked for Richie English. Michael Pedicini and Jimmy The Gent Burke (Not the Irish Mobster!). They hit the jobs at 7am and WENT TO TOWN! They did everything. Rip out, repipe ONLY what they had to, wire up and fire, clean up. No lunch unless you ate while you worked. You were covered in black soot. We were usually done by 430 or 5pm 3 guys. If the boss wanted all the Steam header replaced or all new zones, that was another issue. Those jobs can be 2-3 day easy. Mad Dog

Intplm.

Ridiculous!!! Unreasonable. Crazy.
Sounds like the policy of some foolish office jockey who never picked up a wrench in their life.
Finding a different place to work should be in your near future.

clammy

Usually we can do a steam boiler replacement w all new near boiler piping and have it going in a day not a 8 hour day but certainly no more then 9 or 10 even on a nightmare job . These are residential boilers under say 200 mbtu .This is w seasoned mech w min of 20 years in the field and everything needed material wise to do so . I personally I would sooner eat out of a garbage can then ever work for any place that offer some type of floating pay scale where I end up on the bottom side no way . Also all of these types of place put a lot of pressure to up sell and offer monthly or quarterly service contracts . I always felt that a good service or install tech is just that not a multi tasking revenue making salesman ,u sell whats in the Customers best interest not what creates the most free cash and kick backs . This is just my self a one man shop so my business views and thought process is different then some one w 20 employees so I get it and this is why I work for myself instead of for someone plus I have a strict no bs policy and if I am working for some one as a employee I would like them to be smarter then me not the opposite . As for a boiler a day equaling 5 a week is a lot to ask personally if it’s only a 1 man crew even w a few guys to help removal and gett8ng new one in place , it makes for a long day and I would image hustling the whole time but it’s done but at a sliding pay scale I would think they don’t keep guys to long . It’s not undoable but you should be rewarded $ well not on a performance scale that’s plain horse dung
Peace and good luck clammy .

Dairon421

clammy said:

Usually we can do a steam boiler replacement w all new near boiler piping and have it going in a day not a 8 hour day but certainly no more then 9 or 10 even on a nightmare job . These are residential boilers under say 200 mbtu .This is w seasoned mech w min of 20 years in the field and everything needed material wise to do so . I personally I would sooner eat out of a garbage can then ever work for any place that offer some type of floating pay scale where I end up on the bottom side no way . Also all of these types of place put a lot of pressure to up sell and offer monthly or quarterly service contracts . I always felt that a good service or install tech is just that not a multi tasking revenue making salesman ,u sell whats in the Customers best interest not what creates the most free cash and kick backs . This is just my self a one man shop so my business views and thought process is different then some one w 20 employees so I get it and this is why I work for myself instead of for someone plus I have a strict no bs policy and if I am working for some one as a employee I would like them to be smarter then me not the opposite . As for a boiler a day equaling 5 a week is a lot to ask personally if it’s only a 1 man crew even w a few guys to help removal and gett8ng new one in place , it makes for a long day and I would image hustling the whole time but it’s done but at a sliding pay scale I would think they don’t keep guys to long . It’s not undoable but you should be rewarded $ well not on a performance scale that’s plain horse dung Peace and good luck clammy .

Yes its frustrating. So tomorrow we have another boiler and have another office meeting. We Don't get to the job until like 9-10am. The guys remove the boiler today but not knowledgeable to get a parts list and the old piping is still there so tomorrow I still have to do that.  We have a new parts guy that works with me and he really don't understand the fitting yet so we may be going back and forth to the parts store . The piping on the boiler takes at least 2-4 hours . Then you have to do gas ,water , electrical venting. You have to startup the system and of course you will have some leaking unions to tighten up. Then you have to skim the boiler and test all the radiators. That **** takes a lot time . I thought it was something I was doing wrong but after reading all of these comments I think my boss is just insane. 

Dairon421

Mad Dog_2 said:

With alot of the oil companies and some plumbing & Heating shops, that was the deal. Whatever it took to get it done in one day. I learned boilers with two of Long Island's Best Heating guys, when we all worked for Richie English. Michael Pedicini and Jimmy The Gent Burke (Not the Irish Mobster!). They hit the jobs at 7am and WENT TO TOWN! They did everything. Rip out, repipe ONLY what they had to, wire up and fire, clean up. No lunch unless you ate while you worked. You were covered in black soot. We were usually done by 430 or 5pm 3 guys. If the boss wanted all the Steam header replaced or all new zones, that was another issue. Those jobs can be 2-3 day easy. Mad Dog

Exactly. If you want boiler done in one day let's start at like 7 or 7:30am. Not later in the day

pedmec

We use to do the boilers in a day. We would do the demo and installation, up and running. No chimney liner or make up air. 7am start. We would do a lot of Burnham independence so we knew exactly what we needed to do to get the job done. Even did one in 5.5 hours. It was the smallest snowman boiler i ever seen and me, my helper, and the two electricians just lifted it out of the basement. It was only 4 steps but was that heavy. its was at a point where we were doing about 3 a week and my helper, who went about 6'3", didn't want to do a demo. he really want to get it out in one piece. We would replace a lot of snowmans. the gas company had the gas to oil conversion program and we were doing a lot of them. 1/2 of them were of the snowman variety.

I look back now and think, What the hell was i thinking. We just use to be like madmen on the job. I even tried to do two steam boilers in a day. Came close but ran out of gas at around 9pm.

clammy

Maybe you need to ask your boss to show you exactly how it’s done and how he managed to do them by him self under the same circumstances lol I always called that the squeezing of the lemon exactly how much work can we out of a employee and how much profit can be made while working a young guy to exhaustion . From my experience boss who expects a miracle every day and profits to be made on every job but in turn does not charge enough always has to bum rush the guys to work faster and harder . In this day and age I will give you some sound advice from a guy whom as been there and some . Work like a gentlemen not a animal if your a good mech w work ethics and just half a brain then you should never feel forced to constantly work harder and faster It does not pay any more in your pocket your boss may love it but usually to most bosses your just a number and income . Again let him show you how it s done if he can’t do what he say then he s full of it and you should find a place based on quality more then bottom line profit . There two kinda of businesses out there those based on numbers and those based on quality when quality is done and the job was charged properly the number will be fine ,those based just on number need to always be blasting out jobs figuring the volume will make the money ,this is usallly not the case with those companies that do quality work and are looking to build a Excellent reputation not just to get the numbers just to selling it and cash out . On another note be sure to always work for places or people who are smarter then yourself ,your employer should always be smarter then the employee if not then you should find a better place to work ,if your boss is just a business men your not gonna learn a thing about the mech end . Peace and good luck clammy

Long Beach Ed

Is the business so slow that you have to work in a shop like that? We can't get experienced, conscientious mechanics around here who can work with others and we kiss their feet when we find them. Look around and value your skills. Unless you have recent criminal arrests that have been all over the newspapers you should be able to pick your employer. Find a good shop with good guys and a boss who's not obsessed with amassing material stuff off of your animal labor...

Pipe

We always get the job done in one day. Granted we’re at the job before 8 AM and all the material is on the truck to complete the job.

Ifollowinstructions

Sounds like your boss has not enough brains/insight to think ahead 24 hours t'll the next day, his lack of planning creates 12-14 hour days for the crew, he probably screams at the supply house for being late or missing a fitting daily. 24 hours in a day, start planning before you get old!--good luck...

SlamDunk

I think one boiler a day is possible. I just don't think you'll be doing it for long!

Painter

It can be done. But not if the boss holds you up in a meeting for half the morning. One zone, hydronic, 3 guys, tear out and install. Nothing fancy, get it done. Material must be there along with the boiler. You are either an installer or a scheduler that prepares the job with what you need. Not both. 
When there is no heat there is no choice.
One every day is asking too much unless it's a well oiled machine.

propmanage

You can do them but how long until the good horse is run into the ground. It’s one thing to push for five boiler in a week and that’s how to win the bid but with a big **** bonus once or twice a year not as a normal a work week its crazy. Good luck.

cubbydog

If you have a demolition team an electrician to do the wiring,The parts and the boiler are on site. Also there’s three of you, maybe your boss should demand that you do two boiler today!