Lead Wipe Long Island

Intplm.

Lead....lead poured joints. Lead paint. Lead.
Hey! I had used it for years. Still do but very rarely.
In this day in age why? Why? It isn't necessary.
I think the word "Plumbism" came about because of illnesses caused by lead exposure.
It's not hysteria. This is real-world stuff.
Look. If you prefer to put yourself in harm's way from lead and lead fumes?
To each his own?

ChrisJ

Intplm. said:

Lead....lead poured joints. Lead paint. Lead.
Hey! I had used it for years. Still do but very rarely.
In this day in age why? Why? It isn't necessary.
I think the word "Plumbism" came about because of illnesses caused by lead exposure.
It's not hysteria. This is real-world stuff.
Look. If you prefer to put yourself in harm's way from lead and lead fumes?
To each his own?

It wasn't necessary to use lead in paint ever.

To the best of my knowledge lead was used as a cheap pigment. So far, assuming my tests are accurate I've found no lead in 1930s GE white refrigerator paint. The same tests indicated lead in old paint in my house so I assume they work.

In my eyes, leaded paint was cheap, nothing else and we knew it was toxic back then too. Same with lead water service lines, we knew jolly well it was a bad idea to use lead piping in the 1800s and early 1980s.


That said,
Lead fumes?

I've never heard of lead fumes being an issue with lead soldering. You want to operate cleanly, keep your fingers etc away from your face and mouth but I've never heard of lead fumes from lead solder. Flux fumes, sure.

My understanding is the primary reason for lead free soldering in electronics is it ends up leaching into the water supply via land fills.

Intplm.

ChrisJ said:

Intplm. said:

Lead....lead poured joints. Lead paint. Lead.
Hey! I had used it for years. Still do but very rarely.
In this day in age why? Why? It isn't necessary.
I think the word "Plumbism" came about because of illnesses caused by lead exposure.
It's not hysteria. This is real-world stuff.
Look. If you prefer to put yourself in harm's way from lead and lead fumes?
To each his own?

It wasn't necessary to use lead in paint ever.

To the best of my knowledge lead was used as a cheap pigment. So far, assuming my tests are accurate I've found no lead in 1930s GE white refrigerator paint. The same tests indicated lead in old paint in my house so I assume they work.

In my eyes, leaded paint was cheap, nothing else and we knew it was toxic back then too. Same with lead water service lines, we knew jolly well it was a bad idea to use lead piping in the 1800s and early 1980s.


That said,
Lead fumes?

I've never heard of lead fumes being an issue with lead soldering. You want to operate cleanly, keep your fingers etc away from your face and mouth but I've never heard of lead fumes from lead solder. Flux fumes, sure.

My understanding is the primary reason for lead free soldering in electronics is it ends up leaching into the water supply via land fills.

Agree with much of what you are saying. My thoughts when commenting are toward lead joints being wiped on lead piping and lead joints adapting to brass or copper DWV with a ferrel. This type of work is heavy with lead and lead fumes when melting that can be breathed in.
I don't stock lead 50/50 solder any longer because it might get mixed into the potable water piping joints.
Pouring lead joints is also to what I was referring to.
Requiring lead wiping work as a test towards a plumbing lic. etc. ? I ask why? Haven't we evolved?

pecmsg

ChrisJ said:

Lead....lead poured joints. Lead paint. Lead. Hey! I had used it for years. Still do but very rarely. In this day in age why? Why? It isn't necessary. I think the word "Plumbism" came about because of illnesses caused by lead exposure. It's not hysteria. This is real-world stuff. Look. If you prefer to put yourself in harm's way from lead and lead fumes? To each his own?

It wasn't necessary to use lead in paint ever. To the best of my knowledge lead was used as a cheap pigment. So far, assuming my tests are accurate I've found no lead in 1930s GE white refrigerator paint. The same tests indicated lead in old paint in my house so I assume they work. In my eyes, leaded paint was cheap, nothing else and we knew it was toxic back then too. Same with lead water service lines, we knew jolly well it was a bad idea to use lead piping in the 1800s and early 1980s. That said, Lead fumes? I've never heard of lead fumes being an issue with lead soldering. You want to operate cleanly, keep your fingers etc away from your face and mouth but I've never heard of lead fumes from lead solder. Flux fumes, sure. My understanding is the primary reason for lead free soldering in electronics is it ends up leaching into the water supply via land fills.

Steel does not expand and contract like wood!

mattmia2

Is a monitor top painted or enameled?

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

Is a monitor top painted or enameled?

All of the tops are painted.
All cabinets have porcelain enamel on the inside.

Cheaper cabinets are painted on the outside while better ones are porcelain enamel.

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

ChrisJ said:

Lead....lead poured joints. Lead paint. Lead. Hey! I had used it for years. Still do but very rarely. In this day in age why? Why? It isn't necessary. I think the word "Plumbism" came about because of illnesses caused by lead exposure. It's not hysteria. This is real-world stuff. Look. If you prefer to put yourself in harm's way from lead and lead fumes? To each his own?

It wasn't necessary to use lead in paint ever. To the best of my knowledge lead was used as a cheap pigment. So far, assuming my tests are accurate I've found no lead in 1930s GE white refrigerator paint. The same tests indicated lead in old paint in my house so I assume they work. In my eyes, leaded paint was cheap, nothing else and we knew it was toxic back then too. Same with lead water service lines, we knew jolly well it was a bad idea to use lead piping in the 1800s and early 1980s. That said, Lead fumes? I've never heard of lead fumes being an issue with lead soldering. You want to operate cleanly, keep your fingers etc away from your face and mouth but I've never heard of lead fumes from lead solder. Flux fumes, sure. My understanding is the primary reason for lead free soldering in electronics is it ends up leaching into the water supply via land fills.

Steel does not expand and contract like wood!

As far as I know the lead was used for pigment.  I've never heard of it having anything to do with expansion and contraction?

Ok so it does a few other things but nothing about making it more elastic?

Mad Dog_2

You need to Reach Out to Manny Troise of Staten Island and his Partner Sal. They still teach it. Lead and asbestos are mighty materials from the Earth that served us very well for thousands of years. I've been licensed to remove asbestos and have done it safely for years. I have worked extensively with Lead, pouring Bell& Spigot cast iron joints, crafting lead shower pans, soldering on Brass toilet flanges to lead bends (which is still the best and longest lasting toilet flange connection...beats No-Hub and PVC- Hands-down). I am extremely proud that when I took my Master Plumbers Exam in 1998, I passed the Lead wipe with flying colors after practicing hard in my Mom's garage. Johnny NY did the same thing. Lead wiping is a highly skilled art and craft and can be a little dangerous when you splashed the molten lead on your hand. I don't CARE if its hardly used anymore. It shows great commitment, dedication, and a great degree of coordination and skill. It makes the Master Plumbers License very difficult to get...and that's a good thing. Its a dead serious and vital trade that takes life, safety and health in its hands. I've always done my utmost to protect my lungs and eyes in this trade. I've Have had many stitches, burns and bruises in almost 40 years in the trenches. I wear them like a badge of honor. That being said, you're in the wrong trade if you're going to worry about a little Lead Smoke or burning flux or occasionally getting splashed with sewage water. Got it shot right in to my open mouth once. A little gargle with Rubbing alcohol took care of that. I'm all for keeping the lead wipe test in place. Just like Mercury and Asbestos, Don't eat lead and you'll be fine! Mad Dog

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

You need to Reach Out to Manny Troise of Staten Island and his Partner Sal. They still teach it. Lead and asbestos are mighty materials from the Earth that served us very well for thousands of years. I've been licensed to remove asbestos and have done it safely for years. I have worked extensively with Lead, pouring Bell& Spigot cast iron joints, crafting lead shower pans, soldering on Brass toilet flanges to lead bends (which is still the best and longest lasting toilet flange connection...beats No-Hub and PVC- Hands-down). I am extremely proud that when I took my Master Plumbers Exam in 1998, I passed the Lead wipe with flying colors after practicing hard in my Mom's garage. Johnny NY did the same thing. Lead wiping is a highly skilled art and craft and can be a little dangerous when you splashed the molten lead on your hand. I don't CARE if its hardly used anymore. It shows great commitment, dedication, and a great degree of coordination and skill. It makes the Master Plumbers License very difficult to get...and that's a good thing. Its a dead serious and vital trade that takes life, safety and health in its hands. I've always done my utmost to protect my lungs and eyes in this trade. I've Have had many stitches, burns and bruises in almost 40 years in the trenches. I wear them like a badge of honor. That being said, you're in the wrong trade if you're going to worry about a little Lead Smoke or burning flux or occasionally getting splashed with sewage water. Got it shot right in to my open mouth once. A little gargle with Rubbing alcohol took care of that. I'm all for keeping the lead wipe test in place. Just like Mercury and Asbestos, Don't eat lead and you'll be fine! Mad Dog

I'm curious why you feel brass toilet flanges and lead bends outlast PVC? To the extent of "hands down" even?

Charlie from wmass

The only weakness with PVC flanges are the cheap rings that corrode out especially when the toilet is not seated properly on the flange. If you replace the cheap sheet metal with a stainless steel ring or you buy one with a good stainless steel ring on already it will last considerably longer than a crappy lead bend. I find it funny that my father felt learning to wipe a lead joint was a waste of time as it was one of the least skilled things in the plumbing trade in his opinion and as he would say anyone can learn it why waste your time doing something that is obsolete and we have better ways of doing it.

Mad Dog_2

It's not a "feeling." Its based on my almost 40 years in plumbing and heating and seeing what works best and holds up and what doesn't. I had many of the same customers for these decades. I was back in these homes often so I got see alot. Do I keep doing things the same way or do I constantly improve and upgrade my skills and techniques. I learned the hard way, or after working with new plumbers whom I would pick up and adopt their best practices' Voracious reading of the great industry authors like Dan and countless seminars and BOCES classes, culminated it what I found to be THE BEST way to do certain things. Call backs and repipes are tuition I didn't want to keep paying. I came in to the trade around '84 or so. PVC had only really been around since the late 70s and I already saw lots of failures, splitting, brittle, sagging .
I've pulled dozens of toilets with PVC flanges with the metal ring AND the solid thick PVC ones to that broke off with the bowl. Great! Now I have to open the ceiling below and cut a bunch of fittings back. With A Lead bend you can almost always wipe on an extension or clean up and repair torn lead with 50/50. Even when I rough in a PVC bathroom, I use a 3" PVC glue socket X Lead bend for the toilet waste. I leave a good gap around the area where the flange meets the tile and install a short 6" PVC temporary sleeve that I would pull out after the tile was done, I starting doing this after most tile guys would bury my stub up and you'd have to chop new tile to get a flange on. Now, I could "kick" the lead bend wherever I needed to home in on the perfect roughing spot based on the particular toilet. How many toilet installs do we see 1," 2," 3," s from wall to back of tank?????? Looks terrible and tank can crack prematurely. I prided myself on having minimal 1/2" gap or less. also, with a lead bend you can skew the lead bend at all different angles, to squeeze between joists or if u weren't able to fit two or three fittings to make the rough work. Last, real-world, empirical evidence: I've seen countless lead bends, Lead pans, wiped lead waste last 100 yrs and some times more and Lead can be repaired with a little torch skill. Lead and brass are highly resistant to acids, urine, feces and they can't rust off. The PVC I've come across, which is all the time, is real banged up after 35-40 years. I've seen the glue joints pull apart, great sagging, damage from really hot water, splitting et cetera. To me, that's a no-brainer, hands down. When I did my Old Victorian Farmhouse over in 2000, I vowed to not use ANY PVC, and I didn't. PVC is fun to rough in with and takes a good deal of skill to get good, but it is not the best job. Merry Christmas everyone. Mad Dog

Long Beach Ed

Agree 100% with the Mad Dog<. Hands down, a lead bend with brass flange beats PVC. Still use them in my personal work. Still use lots of cast iron, too. Ah, Manny Troise of Staten Island !

PC7060

Intplm. said:

Lead....lead poured joints. Lead paint. Lead. Hey! I had used it for years. Still do but very rarely. In this day in age why? Why? It isn't necessary. I think the word "Plumbism" came about because of illnesses caused by lead exposure. It's not hysteria. This is real-world stuff. Look. If you prefer to put yourself in harm's way from lead and lead fumes? To each his own?

“Plumber” originated from the Latin word for lead. Remember to the Romans when your flush your toilet.

Mad Dog_2

Lead in Latin is Plumb bum.   Plumbarius
Is worker of lead.  Mad dog

Charlie from wmass

And lead poisoning led the the fall of Rome

Mad Dog_2

I don't care what anyone says,  wiping and shaping lead takes tons of skill and dexterity and requires that special touch or you'll destroy it. I once cut out a complete 3 piece bathroom waste a wiped lead joints and branches. Thr tub trap was all perfectly bent  by hand..   I donated w alot of other stuff to Suffolk Comminity College to Prof Silbersteins Museum.  Mad Dog

Dave Carpentier

The telecom end of lead wiping was pretty cool. The old timers had done the pot of lead pouring before I got there, but I did get to do countless lead pipe wipes of 8", 12" or larger diameter for splice enclosures using rolls of solder and asbestos pads. There wasnt much for precautions back in the day, but still.. any lead test bloodwork I've had shows "0". Maybe you have to eat the stuff regularly for it to show up ?

mattmia2

Dave Carpentier said:

The telecom end of lead wiping was pretty cool. The old timers had done the pot of lead pouring before I got there, but I did get to do countless lead pipe wipes of 8", 12" or larger diameter for splice enclosures using rolls of solder and asbestos pads. There wasnt much for precautions back in the day, but still.. any lead test bloodwork I've had shows "0". Maybe you have to eat the stuff regularly for it to show up ?

Lead doesn't really vaporize at soldering temps.

There are numerous ways to replace broken keys in a closet flange without replacing the flange.

ChrisJ

Dave Carpentier said:

The telecom end of lead wiping was pretty cool. The old timers had done the pot of lead pouring before I got there, but I did get to do countless lead pipe wipes of 8", 12" or larger diameter for splice enclosures using rolls of solder and asbestos pads. There wasnt much for precautions back in the day, but still.. any lead test bloodwork I've had shows "0". Maybe you have to eat the stuff regularly for it to show up ?

As long as you're careful it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Though I don't know how much of an issue lead in drain water is etc. If it causes problems with ground water and such.

Symptoms of lead poisoning are typically are developmental delays, abdominal pain, neurologic changes, and irritability. You may even start thinking lead and cast iron drains are superior to PVC at which point I highly recommend seeking medical attention.

Charlie from wmass

It is about the literally downstream effect

Mad Dog_2

Let me clarify.  I'm talking about lead use as a water Waste disposal material.,  lead bends, lead pans...I've always tried to replace lead water services with copper as a rule but as far as I was always taught,  lead services in NYC and Long Island quickly form that white film on the walls of the pipe via oxidation and once that happened there was zero leaching of lead in to the house.  Same in Flint Michigan UNTIL they changed their water source and different chemical make up of that water caused the old lead to leach.   That was the problem there.  Mad Dog. 

Mad Dog_2

A well-researched article published in 2014 in Scienceshot magazine cited a study done by scientists downstream of Rome in the harbor sediment. Although they found higher lead levels than expected they concluded it wasn't enough to cause bodily harm to Ancient Romans. Many other things lead to The Fall of The Roman Empire including foreign invasions, over extension militarily, rampant corruption and a general malaise, too much 🍷 vino and orgies.debauchery. Mad 🐕 Dog
Ne

Intplm.

"Plumbism" is the technical term for lead poisoning.

Please handle it with care and at your own risque.

Mad Dog_2

Thanks, but I'm not worried about it. You wash your hands good and its over! As Plumbing and heating professionals we try our darndest to protect our lungs, eyes, knees, backs, but we face unknown environmental hazards all the time: Friable Asbestos in the air, Carbon Monoxide & Soot, Silica dust, Sulfuric acid, raw sewage with contains hepatitis, Cholera, Dysentery, and other stuff. Does it takes its toll us - no doubt, but you're in the wrong business if you worry about touching a piece of lead. Mad Dog