boiler design and zones

WMno57

hot_rod said:

If any uninsulated piping is inside the insulated structure, it is not heat loss, it is still adding to the space.

Don't get hung up on the gallons of water in the system or boiler.

@terrs Please focus on the above. It is true. My 1916 house, 1950 boiler, 3 inch outside diameter pipes, and high volume radiators might add up to 10 times the volume of your system. My insulation is also only OK. My 106 year old house is not airtight. My system works, keeps my home comfortable, and is safe. My gas bills are reasonable.
Please hire a contractor with a combustion analyzer and basic knowledge of hot water heat.

TerrS

@WMno57 all my piping are buried in my wall, many in old 3x10 heating duct work leftover from coal furnace heating days. They used many of these to run the 3/4 piping to rooms. So while it heats the interior of my house it doesn't do to much good for the living spaces.

And you just said it. I lived in 3 houses with honest to goodness cast iron radiators and this problem did NOT exist. Because even at 130-140 degrees water, they pump off heat!!! Mine you can start to feel at 150 degree water, but nothing until 170-180 water hits.

PS this is why my buderus rads work so well, but I only have 2, at even 120 degrees they are giving off heat, at the same time my kick starts blowing air.

I took a picture of my circulator, anyone know how fast my water is moving?

Again I need to resolve these issues 1x1 as I don't have $11k sitting around to swap everything out.

pecmsg

Get a blower door test performed. (Your local utility may do it) Find where the air is coming in and seal up the leaks.

pedmec

If they are slant-fin baseboards you can change the elements to high output elements only. Depending on flow you can get roughly 200 btus per foot out of them. 200 x 124'=24,800 more btus. I'm sure somebody my have another idea.

But the boiler has to be working correctly or your wasting money.

hot_rod

I think you next step is to get someone with some gauges, instrumentation, IR camera and a tape measure on-site. If that could be a Hydronics pro all the better. 

But you are at the data collection point in this troubleshoot.

In reality, you could perform a heat load calc, if you get blower door data, you could tighten that load number instead of all assumptions. They are software programs online, most have a free trial period. Old style paper load calc sheets are still available, or hire someone to perform this first step. 

All this could be less $$ then throwing more equipment at the problem on a wish and prayer.

JakeCK

One question, are you comfortable on the coldest day of the year? That is if the water temperature is 180f of course.

TerrS

JakeCK said:

One question, are you comfortable on the coldest day of the year? That is if the water temperature is 180f of course.

Yes i can make the house warm, 70 or higher if I want with no issues. But that's downstairs. The single thermostat doesn't account for the difference in the upstairs temperature. Even though my attic is heated. I have added weather stripping and keep that door closed and don't notice any cold escaping.  But as I go up it's noticeably colder.

However due something TBD, doesn't seem right heating the water, then i only set the  t-stat to 68, to save on fuel costs. which then

 exacerbates the upstairs colder issue.

So I have to make a change.

Either I move the single thermostat OR I add a thermostat upstairs and zone it independently. This way if the downstairs is at temperature, the boiler can still run to make the upstairs the same temperature or whatever it's set to.

JakeCK

Maybe someone else can answer this but can trv's be used with baseboard? Maybe move the t stat upstairs, and install trv's on the downstairs baseboard if they work on bb.

TerrS

@JakeCK it might have been mentioned in all the answers but can someone define what a short cycling a boiler is?

Does firing for let's say 10min to raise water temperature backup 10 degrees count?  Or please explain??

JakeCK

10 minutes isn't too bad of a cycle depending on how cold it is outside.

pecmsg

TerrS said:

JakeCK said:

One question, are you comfortable on the coldest day of the year? That is if the water temperature is 180f of course.

Yes i can make the house warm, 70 or higher if I want with no issues. But that's downstairs. The single thermostat doesn't account for the difference in the upstairs temperature. Even though my attic is heated. I have added weather stripping and keep that door closed and don't notice any cold escaping.  But as I go up it's noticeably colder.

However due something TBD, doesn't seem right heating the water, then i only set the  t-stat to 68, to save on fuel costs. which then

 exacerbates the upstairs colder issue.

So I have to make a change.

Either I move the single thermostat OR I add a thermostat upstairs and zone it independently. This way if the downstairs is at temperature, the boiler can still run to make the upstairs the same temperature or whatever it's set to.

and what happens with the door open?

TerrS

@pecmsg nothing bad, but there is a cold draft. If I do that. Every once in awhile someone will not shut all the way and we will notice

pecmsg

TerrS said:

@pecmsg nothing bad, but there is a cold draft. If I do that. Every once in awhile someone will not shut all the way and we will notice

Then that attic leaks like a sieve. Find and seal the leaks!

TerrS

pecmsg said:

@pecmsg nothing bad, but there is a cold draft. If I do that. Every once in awhile someone will not shut all the way and we will notice

Then that attic leaks like a sieve. Find and seal the leaks!

Yep guaranteed, finished in 1940, old plaster and lath. No insulation or very little and very costly to resolve.  So I seal the door as best we can to band-aid the issue and 99% that works.

Again rip down the house and start over. There has to be a better resolution to my issue. YES, not as GOOD as ripping the attic out and rebuilding but it's storage only. The issue is looking at my 2nd floor ceilings and insulating those better, to stop that permeating down.

pecmsg

TerrS said:

pecmsg said:

TerrS said:

@pecmsg nothing bad, but there is a cold draft. If I do that. Every once in awhile someone will not shut all the way and we will notice

Then that attic leaks like a sieve. Find and seal the leaks!

Yep guaranteed, finished in 1940, old plaster and lath. No insulation or very little and very costly to resolve.  So I seal the door as best we can to band-aid the issue and 99% that works.

Again rip down the house and start over. There has to be a better resolution to my issue. YES, not as GOOD as ripping the attic out and rebuilding but it's storage only. The issue is looking at my 2nd floor ceilings and insulating those better, to stop that permeating down.

Every solution seems very dramatic!

No you dont have to tear the house down, there are ways of insulating with minimal damage and getting good results!

TerrS

@pecmsg sorry. The word is invasive, but I am looking at having cellulose blown into my 2nd floor bedrooms ceilings as a start. That should help with that transition space between colder attic and warmer bedrooms. I am also looking at other places and cost for infrared scan and blower testing to give me a roadmap. If I have a couple of hot spots, err cold even, or is it a little bit in many places that are causing the issues..

I have to remember what problems am I trying to solve here. And that really is getting more consistent heat to the 2nd floor. Insulation will always help, but if the heats is not on, because the downstairs is at temp, I can add Insulation until the rooms are full and still be cold.

Lastly why does the boiler take so long to get to temperature. I have one guy on Nov 9 coming and have to return Ron's phone call.

So I am moving forward, all these messages are not lost and taking to heart but within my budget..

WMno57

https://rescue-my-roof.com/blog/hot-roof-vs-cold-roof-differences/

pecmsg

TerrS said:

@pecmsg sorry. The word is invasive, but I am looking at having cellulose blown into my 2nd floor bedrooms ceilings as a start. That should help with that transition space between colder attic and warmer bedrooms. I am also looking at other places and cost for infrared scan and blower testing to give me a roadmap. If I have a couple of hot spots, err cold even, or is it a little bit in many places that are causing the issues..

I have to remember what problems am I trying to solve here. And that really is getting more consistent heat to the 2nd floor. Insulation will always help, but if the heats is not on, because the downstairs is at temp, I can add Insulation until the rooms are full and still be cold.

Lastly why does the boiler take so long to get to temperature. I have one guy on Nov 9 coming and have to return Ron's phone call.

So I am moving forward, all these messages are not lost and taking to heart but within my budget..

Stop the heat from escaping and it will get warm and stay warm longer!

Correct the problem, Heat Loss!

TerrS

WMno57 said:

https://rescue-my-roof.com/blog/hot-roof-vs-cold-roof-differences/

This is actually interesting for all the wrong reasons to me. My roof is 31 years old and when I had it inspected they estimated it to be 20 years old. Good for me, in that I don't have to replace at the moment. But bas for resealable value.

So my attic is livable, full 10ft ceilings and 700sq ft large. But probably very little insulation. But when I had the roof installed in 1991, they also added 2 roof vents.

The snow on my roof doesn't last more than a day or 2. Maybe because its sitting 40ft up off the street, no trees around it, or closer to the sun, with no obstacles blocking. So not sure, overall if it's a good or bad thing.

pecmsg

TerrS said:

WMno57 said:

https://rescue-my-roof.com/blog/hot-roof-vs-cold-roof-differences/

This is actually interesting for all the wrong reasons to me. My roof is 31 years old and when I had it inspected they estimated it to be 20 years old. Good for me, in that I don't have to replace at the moment. But bas for resealable value.

So my attic is livable, full 10ft ceilings and 700sq ft large. But probably very little insulation. But when I had the roof installed in 1991, they also added 2 roof vents.

The snow on my roof doesn't last more than a day or 2. Maybe because its sitting 40ft up off the street, no trees around it, or closer to the sun, with no obstacles blocking. So not sure, overall if it's a good or bad thing.

The snow doesn't stay because all you heat is melting it.

I'm sure you get Pretty icicles though!

WMno57

I posted that article because I wanted you to be aware of the two types of insulation strategies:

• hot roof - insulation directly against roof and shinglesunder attic
  
• cold roof - insulation below air space below roofdirectly above conditioned space ceiling
  

I think that articled is biased, and suspect the publisher is a company that sells hot roof insulation.
I prefer a cold roof. I would only never consider a hot roof on new construction, and then only if I wanted the attic as conditioned living space.

TerrS

WMno57 said:

I posted that article because I wanted you to be aware of the two types of insulation strategies:

• hot roof - insulation directly under attic shingles
• cold roof - insulation directly above conditioned space ceiling

I think that articled is biased, and suspect the publisher is a company that sells hot roof insulation. I prefer a cold roof. I would only consider a hot roof on new construction, and then only if I wanted the attic as conditioned living space.

The good/bad about a house like mine is no real attic, sif I ever did insulate I would put baffles in as to maintain that air space between roof sheeting/ shingles and interior of house attic

pecmsg

TerrS said:

WMno57 said:

I posted that article because I wanted you to be aware of the two types of insulation strategies:

• hot roof - insulation directly under attic shingles
  
• cold roof - insulation directly above conditioned space ceiling
  

I think that articled is biased, and suspect the publisher is a company that sells hot roof insulation.
I prefer a cold roof. I would only consider a hot roof on new construction, and then only if I wanted the attic as conditioned living space.

The good/bad about a house like mine is no real attic, sif I ever did insulate I would put baffles in as to maintain that air space between roof sheeting/ shingles and interior of house attic


In reality ripping out the plaster, properly insulating the roof with venting and new sheet rock IS the solution. It might cost more up front but will pay for itself in a few winters.
Getting more heat up there will cost you in higher fuel bills EVERY winter!

WMno57

Drywall and insulation are cheap.

JakeCK

Do you have a lot of ice damming by the eaves? That happens when all the snow melts on the roof and there refreezes at the bottom where it's colder. Not a good thing. Can allow water under the roofing and can rip gutters down and cause other damage.

psb75

Generally it is not recommended to have one thermostat controlling heat on two (or three?) different floors. And especially in THIS circumstance, with the upper floor not having very good insulation overhead.
An idea: put the thermostat on the second floor. Set it at 68°F and the 1st floor will be PLENTY warm--and expect the boiler to run a lot more.

TerrS

JakeCK said:

Do you have a lot of ice damming by the eaves? That happens when all the snow melts on the roof and there refreezes at the bottom where it's colder. Not a good thing. Can allow water under the roofing and can rip gutters down and cause other damage.

None of that and ever since I had the new roof put on in 1991, no issues with my box gutters. I had to have them re-lined once, but other it's a roof that looks only 20 yrs old.

neilc

TerrS said:

I have to remember what problems am I trying to solve here. And that really is getting more consistent heat to the 2nd floor. Insulation will always help, but if the heats is not on, because the downstairs is at temp, I can add Insulation until the rooms are full and still be cold.

getting consistent heat to floor #2, sounds like a balancing problem,
if I remember correctly, you have 1 inch to the first floor, and 3/4 to 3 other zones / loops,
close down the return ball valve to the first floor by 1/2, handle @ 45*, and see how the system reacts, play with that position,
if 1st floor doesn't heat open handle a bit,
if 2nd floor doesn't balance, close 1st floor ball valve a bit more,
balance the heat between the floors,

carefully, before and after, feel those returns and see how the system reacts

TerrS said:

Lastly why does the boiler take so long to get to temperature.

cuz you have that leaky house,
barefoot and by the back of your hand find the leaks and seal them,
I think you said about sealing the attic door, good,
look for closets on the exterior walls, look for the drafts coming under the baseboard, baseboard heating included, caulk all the drafts to the floor,
look for drafts on all 4 sides of the window and door trim(sides, top, and bottom), caulk,
big holes, foam in a can,

TerrS

neilc said:

So Ray (fireandice) is coming to look at my boiler Tuesday, to try and determine why it takes so long for my water to get to 180degrees.

And possibly look at adding a thermostat to the 2nd floor.

Next Wednesday, I just hired an insulation guy to blow cellulose into the ceilings between my 2nd and 3rd floors. He is going to do a blower test first as to measure the differences. So I will see.

So in understanding the potential balance issue, remember it's only getting heat when the boiler is on. And I think that is my major issue, downstairs gets satisfied and upstairs isn't. So the new insulation might help or solve that issue mostly. I will see again.

 

neilc

TerrS said:

So in understanding the potential balance issue, remember it's only getting heat when the boiler is on. And I think that is my major issue, downstairs gets satisfied and upstairs isn't. So the new insulation might help or solve that issue mostly. I will see again.

and to the balancing, I'm saying to choke down the first floor, till the second get's its due,
insulation won't hurt, but air sealing is (more) important

pecmsg

I disagree with insulation between the 1st and 2nd floors. The 1st floor heat is not escaping it’s aiding the lack of heat on the 2nd floor. 

Insulating the roof is a different story. 

neilc

2nd and 3rd, not 1st and second, who's on first

pecmsg

neilc said:

2nd and 3rd, not 1st and second, who's on first

I don’t insulate between floors. Sound proof yes!

TerrS

pecmsg said:

neilc said:

2nd and 3rd, not 1st and second, who's on first

I don’t insulate between floors. Sound proof yes!

I think you are missing the fact. Is what if you considered my attic as an attic even though it has heat. The core of my house is basement, 1st and 2nd floors. Making a barrier between that attic, no matter what I do with it in the future matters for the rest of living spaces home envelope. Would it get better if it was insulated, yes but not proportionally equally.

Again that 2 gallons of extra water I am heating is helping condition that space. It's like if I had another thermostat up there and kept it at 50 degrees because that's about what it is. What I am protecting is the 68 degree 2nd from that 50 degree 3rd floor

pecmsg

Use the term conditioned space. Heat does move from ceiling to the floor above but very slowly and there’s no losses. 

Normal an attic is not considered conditioned so you insulate the floor because heat moving to the attic IS lost. 

TerrS

pecmsg said:

Use the term conditioned space. Heat does move from ceiling to the floor above but very slowly and there’s no losses. 

Normal an attic is not considered conditioned so you insulate the floor because heat moving to the attic IS lost. 

Yes but I was thinking in reverse. The colder air from the attic penetrating thru the ceiling and then dropping into those rooms.  I probably have heat loss also, as the heat rises and nothing but drywall in those ceilings to stop it.

KC_Jones

TerrS said:

pecmsg said:

Use the term conditioned space. Heat does move from ceiling to the floor above but very slowly and there’s no losses. 

Normal an attic is not considered conditioned so you insulate the floor because heat moving to the attic IS lost. 

Yes but I was thinking in reverse. The colder air from the attic penetrating thru the ceiling and then dropping into those rooms.  I probably have heat loss also, as the heat rises and nothing but drywall in those ceilings to stop it.



Heat moves to cold always.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics