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boiler design and zones

124

Comments

  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 959
    The fill pressure won't matter. If you don't reach the top floor it just means you have less load on the boiler. you wont reach the top floor zone. That in turn will allow the boiler temperature to increase faster. I think we are forgetting the crux of her issue. Its the time (40 minutes on a baseboard system) it takes to heat the water from a cold start to 180 and why is does she need 180 to be comfortable.

    I stand by what i said before until proven otherwise. Underfiring and not enough baseboard.
    TerrSMikeAmann
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    TerrS said:

    @hot_rod agree in maybe the short-term and maybe long-term.

    But when you say my 124ft of emitters, have you considered that 300ft of exposed un insulated supply and return 3/4 pipe running throughout my house?

    We still don't understand, maybe, if I am heating 13.8 gallons of water while it's trying to also heat the house takes 40 minutes. But I  think that is the crux of the why. It's not just big pot, with 150k btus under it. It's 6 gallons always getting refreshed, until finally the return water is within 10-15 degrees  of the supply water, then the boiler is in control and not playing catchup.
    If any uninsulated piping is inside the insulated structure, it is not heat loss, it is still adding to the space. So the structure needs to be as tight and insulated as possible. i'm assuming none of the piping is outside the home? :)

    Don't get hung up on the gallons of water in the system or boiler. With 150,000 boiler of whatever the derate output is, that small volume of water will heat within a few minutes. Fresh cold water is not entering your system, so temperature rise should be instant when the burner turns on. 8.33 btu to raise 1 gallon of water 1°

    So from 50F to 180F requires 1,082 BTU., Say 20 gallons total? Plug in whatever numbers you know. 20gallon X 1082= 21,658 btu. You have at least 113,000 btu to give. See the problem?

    Either the boiler is only producing a fraction of its rated output, you don't have enough heat emitter to distribute that much, or some unexplainable combination of the above.
    pipe size in basement looks adequate to move what the boiler produces.

    If the heat emitters are inadequate, or the piping not able to move the 113,000 the boiler would race to the 180F setpoint.

    Consider a gas fired, tank type water heater holding 50 gallons, it will heat from 50° - 140 in under 30 minutes with 30,000 btu burner, 1/5 the size of your boiler.

    So the heat output issues are not at all related to how much water your system contains.

    If you have open stairwells, remember heat will travel up and down those openings, going from the higher temperature to lower.

    So the second floor at 64F and lower at 70F will cause some of that heat energy to travel up, and the cooler air upstairs to fall down.

    You have plenty to digest, understanding thermal equilibrium my be too much right now, here is a graphic showing the relationship between what a heat source can provide and how the attached heat emitters control that heat source. A pic of high output baseboard.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @pedmec totally agree! I thought we already sortof determined based on a few factors like total house envelope insulation, I am under size in emitters, and I have scoured the web looking for better emitter options but there really are none for my design.

    Which means

    1.  if I drop water temperature with the amount of fins currently, I freeze.

    2. Installing more emitters is impossible as I have no more walls, plus getting supply lines to them, again might as well rip down the house.

    3. Upgrade to all panel radiators, this actually gives off very similar heat but at lower water temperature. This comes at a major cost!

    So then we have to ask, what are we trying to accomplish. Don't try and put me in that condensing 95% - 140 degree water boiler. It will never ever work in this current design. Unless we want to live in parkas!! 

    So we have to live with how I can overcome some of the issues we know.

    Why the lag in coming to temp, I have contacted 2 companies to come and see the issues like everyone suggested.

    Eventually increase the homes insulation efficiency, as increasing emitters is more costly.

    Lastly and I am still leaning, zone the upstairs because it's colder. Maybe because of design or maybe if just never gets to temperature because the thermostat is so far away. It has way more ft of fins, compared to the rest of the house, like 42ft in the 4 bedrooms and hallway and most rooms have been insulated and remodeling. Except for the ceilings in each room which is below the heated attic. So another areas to look at.

  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,250
    edited October 2022
    hot_rod said:

    If any uninsulated piping is inside the insulated structure, it is not heat loss, it is still adding to the space.

    Don't get hung up on the gallons of water in the system or boiler.

    @terrs Please focus on the above. It is true. My 1916 house, 1950 boiler, 3 inch outside diameter pipes, and high volume radiators might add up to 10 times the volume of your system. My insulation is also only OK. My 106 year old house is not airtight. My system works, keeps my home comfortable, and is safe. My gas bills are reasonable.
    Please hire a contractor with a combustion analyzer and basic knowledge of hot water heat.
    I DIY.
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @WMno57 all my piping are buried in my wall, many in old 3x10 heating duct work leftover from coal furnace heating days. They used many of these to run the 3/4 piping to rooms. So while it heats the interior of my house it doesn't do to much good for the living spaces.

    And you just said it. I lived in 3 houses with honest to goodness cast iron radiators and this problem did NOT exist. Because even at 130-140 degrees water, they pump off heat!!! Mine you can start to feel at 150 degree water, but nothing until 170-180 water hits.

    PS this is why my buderus rads work so well, but I only have 2, at even 120 degrees they are giving off heat, at the same time my kick starts blowing air.

    I took a picture of my circulator, anyone know how fast my water is moving?

    Again I need to resolve these issues 1x1 as I don't have $11k sitting around to swap everything out.


    SuperTech
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,776
    Get a blower door test performed. (Your local utility may do it) Find where the air is coming in and seal up the leaks.
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 959
    If they are slant-fin baseboards you can change the elements to high output elements only. Depending on flow you can get roughly 200 btus per foot out of them. 200 x 124'=24,800 more btus. I'm sure somebody my have another idea.

    But the boiler has to be working correctly or your wasting money.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    I think you next step is to get someone with some gauges, instrumentation, IR camera and a tape measure on-site. If that could be a Hydronics pro all the better. 
    But you are at the data collection point in this troubleshoot.

    In reality, you could perform a heat load calc, if you get blower door data, you could tighten that load number instead of all assumptions. They are software programs online, most have a free trial period. Old style paper load calc sheets are still available, or hire someone to perform this first step. 

    All this could be less $$ then throwing more equipment at the problem on a wish and prayer.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    edited October 2022
    One question, are you comfortable on the coldest day of the year? That is if the water temperature is 180f of course.
    TerrS
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    JakeCK said:
    One question, are you comfortable on the coldest day of the year? That is if the water temperature is 180f of course.
    Yes i can make the house warm, 70 or higher if I want with no issues. But that's downstairs. The single thermostat doesn't account for the difference in the upstairs temperature. Even though my attic is heated. I have added weather stripping and keep that door closed and don't notice any cold escaping.  But as I go up it's noticeably colder.

    However due something TBD, doesn't seem right heating the water, then i only set the  t-stat to 68, to save on fuel costs. which then
     exacerbates the upstairs colder issue.

    So I have to make a change.

    Either I move the single thermostat OR I add a thermostat upstairs and zone it independently. This way if the downstairs is at temperature, the boiler can still run to make the upstairs the same temperature or whatever it's set to.

  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    Maybe someone else can answer this but can trv's be used with baseboard? Maybe move the t stat upstairs, and install trv's on the downstairs baseboard if they work on bb.
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @JakeCK it might have been mentioned in all the answers but can someone define what a short cycling a boiler is?

    Does firing for let's say 10min to raise water temperature backup 10 degrees count?  Or please explain??
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    10 minutes isn't too bad of a cycle depending on how cold it is outside.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,776
    edited October 2022
    TerrS said:


    JakeCK said:

    One question, are you comfortable on the coldest day of the year? That is if the water temperature is 180f of course.


    Yes i can make the house warm, 70 or higher if I want with no issues. But that's downstairs. The single thermostat doesn't account for the difference in the upstairs temperature. Even though my attic is heated. I have added weather stripping and keep that door closed and don't notice any cold escaping.  But as I go up it's noticeably colder.

    However due something TBD, doesn't seem right heating the water, then i only set the  t-stat to 68, to save on fuel costs. which then
     exacerbates the upstairs colder issue.

    So I have to make a change.

    Either I move the single thermostat OR I add a thermostat upstairs and zone it independently. This way if the downstairs is at temperature, the boiler can still run to make the upstairs the same temperature or whatever it's set to.



    and what happens with the door open?
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @pecmsg nothing bad, but there is a cold draft. If I do that. Every once in awhile someone will not shut all the way and we will notice
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,776
    TerrS said:

    @pecmsg nothing bad, but there is a cold draft. If I do that. Every once in awhile someone will not shut all the way and we will notice

    Then that attic leaks like a sieve. Find and seal the leaks!
    PC7060
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    pecmsg said:
    @pecmsg nothing bad, but there is a cold draft. If I do that. Every once in awhile someone will not shut all the way and we will notice
    Then that attic leaks like a sieve. Find and seal the leaks!
    Yep guaranteed, finished in 1940, old plaster and lath. No insulation or very little and very costly to resolve.  So I seal the door as best we can to band-aid the issue and 99% that works.

    Again rip down the house and start over. There has to be a better resolution to my issue. YES, not as GOOD as ripping the attic out and rebuilding but it's storage only. The issue is looking at my 2nd floor ceilings and insulating those better, to stop that permeating down.

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,776
    TerrS said:


    pecmsg said:

    TerrS said:

    @pecmsg nothing bad, but there is a cold draft. If I do that. Every once in awhile someone will not shut all the way and we will notice

    Then that attic leaks like a sieve. Find and seal the leaks!


    Yep guaranteed, finished in 1940, old plaster and lath. No insulation or very little and very costly to resolve.  So I seal the door as best we can to band-aid the issue and 99% that works.

    Again rip down the house and start over. There has to be a better resolution to my issue. YES, not as GOOD as ripping the attic out and rebuilding but it's storage only. The issue is looking at my 2nd floor ceilings and insulating those better, to stop that permeating down.



    Every solution seems very dramatic!

    No you dont have to tear the house down, there are ways of insulating with minimal damage and getting good results!
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @pecmsg sorry. The word is invasive, but I am looking at having cellulose blown into my 2nd floor bedrooms ceilings as a start. That should help with that transition space between colder attic and warmer bedrooms. I am also looking at other places and cost for infrared scan and blower testing to give me a roadmap. If I have a couple of hot spots, err cold even, or is it a little bit in many places that are causing the issues..

    I have to remember what problems am I trying to solve here. And that really is getting more consistent heat to the 2nd floor. Insulation will always help, but if the heats is not on, because the downstairs is at temp, I can add Insulation until the rooms are full and still be cold.

    Lastly why does the boiler take so long to get to temperature. I have one guy on Nov 9 coming and have to return Ron's phone call.

    So I am moving forward, all these messages are not lost and taking to heart but within my budget..


  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,776
    TerrS said:

    @pecmsg sorry. The word is invasive, but I am looking at having cellulose blown into my 2nd floor bedrooms ceilings as a start. That should help with that transition space between colder attic and warmer bedrooms. I am also looking at other places and cost for infrared scan and blower testing to give me a roadmap. If I have a couple of hot spots, err cold even, or is it a little bit in many places that are causing the issues..

    I have to remember what problems am I trying to solve here. And that really is getting more consistent heat to the 2nd floor. Insulation will always help, but if the heats is not on, because the downstairs is at temp, I can add Insulation until the rooms are full and still be cold.

    Lastly why does the boiler take so long to get to temperature. I have one guy on Nov 9 coming and have to return Ron's phone call.

    So I am moving forward, all these messages are not lost and taking to heart but within my budget..


    Stop the heat from escaping and it will get warm and stay warm longer!

    Correct the problem, Heat Loss!
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    WMno57 said:

    This is actually interesting for all the wrong reasons to me. My roof is 31 years old and when I had it inspected they estimated it to be 20 years old. Good for me, in that I don't have to replace at the moment. But bas for resealable value.

    So my attic is livable, full 10ft ceilings and 700sq ft large. But probably very little insulation. But when I had the roof installed in 1991, they also added 2 roof vents.

    The snow on my roof doesn't last more than a day or 2. Maybe because its sitting 40ft up off the street, no trees around it, or closer to the sun, with no obstacles blocking. So not sure, overall if it's a good or bad thing.
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,250
    edited October 2022
    I posted that article because I wanted you to be aware of the two types of insulation strategies:
    • hot roof - insulation directly against roof and shinglesunder attic
    • cold roof - insulation below air space below roofdirectly above conditioned space ceiling
    I think that articled is biased, and suspect the publisher is a company that sells hot roof insulation.
    I prefer a cold roof. I would only never consider a hot roof on new construction, and then only if I wanted the attic as conditioned living space.
    I DIY.
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    edited October 2022
    WMno57 said:
    I posted that article because I wanted you to be aware of the two types of insulation strategies:
    • hot roof - insulation directly under attic shingles
    • cold roof - insulation directly above conditioned space ceiling
    I think that articled is biased, and suspect the publisher is a company that sells hot roof insulation. I prefer a cold roof. I would only consider a hot roof on new construction, and then only if I wanted the attic as conditioned living space.

    The good/bad about a house like mine is no real attic, sif I ever did insulate I would put baffles in as to maintain that air space between roof sheeting/ shingles and interior of house attic
    MikeAmann
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,776
    TerrS said:


    WMno57 said:

    I posted that article because I wanted you to be aware of the two types of insulation strategies:
    • hot roof - insulation directly under attic shingles
    • cold roof - insulation directly above conditioned space ceiling
    I think that articled is biased, and suspect the publisher is a company that sells hot roof insulation.
    I prefer a cold roof. I would only consider a hot roof on new construction, and then only if I wanted the attic as conditioned living space.

    The good/bad about a house like mine is no real attic, sif I ever did insulate I would put baffles in as to maintain that air space between roof sheeting/ shingles and interior of house attic


    In reality ripping out the plaster, properly insulating the roof with venting and new sheet rock IS the solution. It might cost more up front but will pay for itself in a few winters.
    Getting more heat up there will cost you in higher fuel bills EVERY winter!
    WMno57SuperTechMikeAmann
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,250
    Drywall and insulation are cheap.
    I DIY.
    SuperTech
  • MikeAmann
    MikeAmann Member Posts: 996
    TerrS said:

    The snow on my roof doesn't last more than a day or 2. Maybe because its sitting 40ft up off the street, no trees around it, or closer to the sun, with no obstacles blocking. So not sure, overall if it's a good or bad thing.

    BAD thing. Your escaping heat is melting the snow off the roof.
    For comparison, my house is the last on the street to have snow on the roof.
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    Do you have a lot of ice damming by the eaves? That happens when all the snow melts on the roof and there refreezes at the bottom where it's colder. Not a good thing. Can allow water under the roofing and can rip gutters down and cause other damage.
    MikeAmann
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 828
    Generally it is not recommended to have one thermostat controlling heat on two (or three?) different floors. And especially in THIS circumstance, with the upper floor not having very good insulation overhead.
    An idea: put the thermostat on the second floor. Set it at 68°F and the 1st floor will be PLENTY warm--and expect the boiler to run a lot more.
    TerrS
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    JakeCK said:
    Do you have a lot of ice damming by the eaves? That happens when all the snow melts on the roof and there refreezes at the bottom where it's colder. Not a good thing. Can allow water under the roofing and can rip gutters down and cause other damage.

    None of that and ever since I had the new roof put on in 1991, no issues with my box gutters. I had to have them re-lined once, but other it's a roof that looks only 20 yrs old.
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,692
    TerrS said:

    I have to remember what problems am I trying to solve here. And that really is getting more consistent heat to the 2nd floor. Insulation will always help, but if the heats is not on, because the downstairs is at temp, I can add Insulation until the rooms are full and still be cold.

    getting consistent heat to floor #2, sounds like a balancing problem,
    if I remember correctly, you have 1 inch to the first floor, and 3/4 to 3 other zones / loops,
    close down the return ball valve to the first floor by 1/2, handle @ 45*, and see how the system reacts, play with that position,
    if 1st floor doesn't heat open handle a bit,
    if 2nd floor doesn't balance, close 1st floor ball valve a bit more,
    balance the heat between the floors,

    carefully, before and after, feel those returns and see how the system reacts
    TerrS said:

    Lastly why does the boiler take so long to get to temperature.

    cuz you have that leaky house,
    barefoot and by the back of your hand find the leaks and seal them,
    I think you said about sealing the attic door, good,
    look for closets on the exterior walls, look for the drafts coming under the baseboard, baseboard heating included, caulk all the drafts to the floor,
    look for drafts on all 4 sides of the window and door trim(sides, top, and bottom), caulk,
    big holes, foam in a can,
    known to beat dead horses
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    neilc said:


    So Ray (fireandice) is coming to look at my boiler Tuesday, to try and determine why it takes so long for my water to get to 180degrees.

    And possibly look at adding a thermostat to the 2nd floor.

    Next Wednesday, I just hired an insulation guy to blow cellulose into the ceilings between my 2nd and 3rd floors. He is going to do a blower test first as to measure the differences. So I will see.

    So in understanding the potential balance issue, remember it's only getting heat when the boiler is on. And I think that is my major issue, downstairs gets satisfied and upstairs isn't. So the new insulation might help or solve that issue mostly. I will see again.
     
    SuperTechMikeAmann
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,692
    TerrS said:

    So in understanding the potential balance issue, remember it's only getting heat when the boiler is on. And I think that is my major issue, downstairs gets satisfied and upstairs isn't. So the new insulation might help or solve that issue mostly. I will see again.

    and to the balancing, I'm saying to choke down the first floor, till the second get's its due,
    insulation won't hurt, but air sealing is (more) important
    known to beat dead horses
    MikeAmann
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,776
    I disagree with insulation between the 1st and 2nd floors. The 1st floor heat is not escaping it’s aiding the lack of heat on the 2nd floor. 

    Insulating the roof is a different story. 
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,692
    2nd and 3rd, not 1st and second, who's on first
    known to beat dead horses
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,776
    neilc said:
    2nd and 3rd, not 1st and second, who's on first
    I don’t insulate between floors. Sound proof yes!
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    pecmsg said:
    neilc said:
    2nd and 3rd, not 1st and second, who's on first
    I don’t insulate between floors. Sound proof yes!

    I think you are missing the fact. Is what if you considered my attic as an attic even though it has heat. The core of my house is basement, 1st and 2nd floors. Making a barrier between that attic, no matter what I do with it in the future matters for the rest of living spaces home envelope. Would it get better if it was insulated, yes but not proportionally equally.

    Again that 2 gallons of extra water I am heating is helping condition that space. It's like if I had another thermostat up there and kept it at 50 degrees because that's about what it is. What I am protecting is the 68 degree 2nd from that 50 degree 3rd floor
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,776
    Use the term conditioned space. Heat does move from ceiling to the floor above but very slowly and there’s no losses. 
    Normal an attic is not considered conditioned so you insulate the floor because heat moving to the attic IS lost. 
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    pecmsg said:
    Use the term conditioned space. Heat does move from ceiling to the floor above but very slowly and there’s no losses. 
    Normal an attic is not considered conditioned so you insulate the floor because heat moving to the attic IS lost. 
    Yes but I was thinking in reverse. The colder air from the attic penetrating thru the ceiling and then dropping into those rooms.  I probably have heat loss also, as the heat rises and nothing but drywall in those ceilings to stop it.