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boiler design and zones

135

Comments

  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @neilc no because it was only mentioned in passing. I am looking into installing a mini split in the kitchen and basement. Which requiresme to reopen the kitchen ceiling and have access to run lines and condensate down thru my walls. Mostly interior, but i never know, until i do. Possibly running a new upstairs thermostat, unless I do wireless.

    So many parts of my house had insulation added. Other parts always seem to be an after thought with me.
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,691
    on a cold day, do my silly draft leakage test,
    then consider weatherization
    known to beat dead horses
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @neilc I am actually trying to figure out how to do that and infrared scanning. It's not apparent apparently.
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,691
    as someone above suggested,
    check with your electric utility suppliers,
    known to beat dead horses
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    https://www2.illinois.gov/sites/KeepWarm/Pages/Audits.aspx

    It would still be nice to have an accurate heat loss calc done, we are all speculating on that number

    Possibly some of the energy audit companies do that?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 959
    does anybody know what boiler this is? i cant find whether she has indicated oil or gas. nothing here makes any sense. reread some post. 45-50 minutes to heat 52k BASEBOARD to 180 with a 115k btu output boiler
    MikeAmann
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    It had been a bit confusing to follow. Early in the thread there was 115’ of fin tube total
    Now it has panel rads and a kick space heater also, hard to pin down the amount if radiation connected to the 113k boiler

    If the boiler shuts off on design days then it is larger than the connected load.

    But it struggles to get to 180 with the circ not running??

    Sounds like a hydronic twilight zone

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 959
    Sorry, missed the pics. Might be on here too much. Everything is starting to look the same lol
    SuperTech
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @hot_rod lol. As I learn and miss things I add them. But I can guarantee there is no more as I walked my whole house as of writing and measuring.

    So the boiler is a carrier PW51 - 150k input, and 113output, according to the boiler plate.

    And your right, how long does it take to make 13.8 gallons of water 180 degrees. My current is 40 minutes as follows..

    Attic run..

    30ft of fins to the attic and its a 70ft round-trip of piping which in a 3/4 pipe. Is 2.3 gallons.

    2nd floor
    41 ft of fins and 58ft of round-trip piping of that 3/4 pipe is. Still 2.3 gallons.

    So 4.6 gallons

    First floor
    33ft of fins, plus a 3' buderus and kick and only 30ft rt but most of this is 1" pipe, so right around 2 gallons. 1.2 gallons in the 30ft of pipe and .75 gallons in the fins, etc.

    Basement
    20ft of fins plus 30ft of 3/4 pipe is 1.2 gallons.

    So yes I forgot about my basement because I removed 10ft at one point.

    So 124ft total fins plus all the supply/return lines.  Obviously I can't measure all this but I know my 3rd floor is 35ft up from basement and subtracted 11ft every floor I dropped. Plus some run my length of my house before they go up/down. But there are in the ballpark.

    But even still what you are telling me, you say doesn't make sense. As I asked before. I have a big pot of water that starts at 6 gallon from the only spec I found for tank size. Then I add in the 7.8 gallons in my runs, because my circulator only has a 2minute delay before everything starts mixing. So 64degree water slowly being heated. Like I said before it's around 25-30 minutes to get to 120 degrees and the reason I know that is because the kick starts running at that temp. It takes another 15-20 minutes to get to the 180.



  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    PS I live in PA. And we don't have a keepwarm site. And I messaged my gas company, but it seems they might only help low income household.. so I am still looking
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    Sorry, I had Chicago on my mind. You should be able to find an energy auditor, at the very least some one that does thermal scans
    or get an IR adapter for your phone

    So many to do’s on this challange
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • MikeAmann
    MikeAmann Member Posts: 996
    YES, @TerrS
    pedmec nailed this explanation above.
    Your boiler is capable of bringing your 68 degree water to 180 degrees in under 10 minutes.
    Something else is going on.
    TerrS
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,139
    I've been following along. Obviously tightening the home up will always help but the next step should be to get a knowledgeable technician who is familiar with combustion analysis to check out the operation of the boiler.  Check draft, inlet and manifold gas pressure, combustion efficiency and delta T.
    WMno57
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @pedmec thank you not that I completely understand all that. But I agree something is seriously wrong. I just had my boiler serviced. 1 month ago after my new SS flue liner and my chimney was clogged I found.

    I will attach 2 more pictures but I only have one gas valve. And 4 burners. I can tell you last year the times I quoted were true, I am not lying as I am looking for help!!  He did test the gas valve and it was like .2 something lower than he expected but within range is what he told me.

    I have not turned on my boiler yet this year so I don't know if the boiler was starved for air or not, or how long it takes now, next week it's going to get colder in Pittsburgh.
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 828
    TerrS, you are getting some fantastic information here. However, there are too many "moving targets" for folks to "zero in on." It's time that you get a live body standing on site and bringing together "the whole picture." It is frustrating for you, to get contractors on site and then having them tend to their specific tasks. And then leave. They are only dealing with one part of a problematic "whole." The infrared camera is a great suggestion, but even that is only a start. Its worth your time to identify a good knowledgeable person to come on site and map out a plan. Use this feature of the forum:

    Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
    MikeAmann
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    By her description the pump is starting 2 minutes after the burner. She said it takes 30 minutes and the toe kick turns on, that means the pump is running, as far as I can tell. So it’s not the time to heat, it’s the time to heat the water while heating the house at the same time. The 30 minutes starts making more sense if that’s happening. It also shows a potential control problem I believe.

    I thought it was supposed to get up to temperature, then start the pump. In that scenario the time to heat the boiler water would make sense.

    If the pump is running at those low temperatures condensation could be a real concern.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    TerrS
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @psb75. No contractors found within 100 miles, so it's been a challenge to find people. And most are worth 0, they come in answer nothing. Say everything is fine and leave. It's just like the 3 new boiler bids. Can't answer any questions. Just spend $$$$$ and be happy. This is for everything I ask about boilers. Seems everyone only knows forced air!! 
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 828
    You are in Pittsburgh. I'll bet there is at least ONE good "wet-head" in the area. Find that person! Yes, most of North America is still hooked on forced air. The "core" of this website is steam and hot water heat. Really good experts inhabit this site, but there is NOTHING better than "eyes and brain"....at YOUR site.
    SuperTech
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,250
    @captainco do you know of anyone in Pittsburgh, PA that owns a combustion analyzer and knows how to use it?
    I DIY.
    TerrSSuperTech
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,776
    Bayside Heating and Air Conditioning
    22085 U.S. 19
    Zelienople, Pennsylvania 16063

    Pennwood Heating & Cooling
    625 Macbeth Dr
    Pittsburgh, PA 15235-4613

    MikeAmann
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,776
    Options For Healthy Living
    Fort Cherry Rd
    McDonald, PA 15057

    KMS Heating & Cooling
    12490 Adams Drive
    North Huntingdon, PA 15642
    MikeAmann
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,250
    As @SuperTech said, the next step is have a tech do five things. The tech must leave you a written report documenting these five things.
    1. Check draft
    2. inlet gas pressure
    3. manifold gas pressure
    4. combustion efficiency
    5. delta T
    I DIY.
    SuperTech
  • NoelAnderson
    NoelAnderson Member Posts: 49
    I don't know if it has been asked, but what is your system cold fill pressure? Since I see now you are heating an attic that would be three stories tall. Your initial cold fill pressure should be @ 18 PSI. and not the typical 12PSI. along with the air charge on the diaphragm expansion tank. If your fill pressure is not high enough you will not have any water circulation on the third floor attic.
    TerrSMikeAmann
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 828
    She indicated that there is radiation on FOUR levels. And...three different kinds of radiation.
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 959
    I'm still sticking with my gas valve problem. Did he measure inlet gas pressure or did he measure manifold gas pressure. Big difference. If you ain't running with the design gas pressure your just simmering the water. And its not an uncommon problem. You don't realize it until the temperatures start to really drop outside. You should really try and get that info.
    MikeAmann
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @KC_Jones that 2min delay has only been introduced since adding the Beckett 7610. This helped only a little, it also runs the circulator after the t-stat is satisfied for 3 minutes because I was wasting spent energy in the boiler if it just got to 180 and the t-stat said I'm good, shut off. Again it's been this way forever, because as a homeowner I didn't know better. Now getting higher bills means I am taking a serious look at why and this thread has really shed light on potential issues.

    @pecmsg thanks I will contact 2 of those clos
    I don't know if it has been asked, but what is your system cold fill pressure? Since I see now you are heating an attic that would be three stories tall. Your initial cold fill pressure should be @ 18 PSI. and not the typical 12PSI. along with the air charge on the diaphragm expansion tank. If your fill pressure is not high enough you will not have any water circulation on the third floor attic.
    Its at 20psi.

  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    pedmec said:
    I'm still sticking with my gas valve problem. Did he measure inlet gas pressure or did he measure manifold gas pressure. Big difference. If you ain't running with the design gas pressure your just simmering the water. And its not an uncommon problem. You don't realize it until the temperatures start to really drop outside. You should really try and get that info.

    All I can tell you. He took something off the valve and put some type of Guage that read and don't quote me here. But I think it was either 2.8 or 3.8.  He gave me no other printouts or information
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    TerrS said:

    @KC_Jones that 2min delay has only been introduced since adding the Beckett 7610. This helped only a little, it also runs the circulator after the t-stat is satisfied for 3 minutes because I was wasting spent energy in the boiler if it just got to 180 and the t-stat said I'm good, shut off. Again it's been this way forever, because as a homeowner I didn't know better. Now getting higher bills means I am taking a serious look at why and this thread has really shed light on potential issues.

    @pecmsg thanks I will contact 2 of those clos


    I don't know if it has been asked, but what is your system cold fill pressure? Since I see now you are heating an attic that would be three stories tall. Your initial cold fill pressure should be @ 18 PSI. and not the typical 12PSI. along with the air charge on the diaphragm expansion tank. If your fill pressure is not high enough you will not have any water circulation on the third floor attic.

    Its at 20psi.



    Just to be clear, you don't want the circulator running based on time, it should run based on water temperature, in your case that should be ~180° before the circulator turns on.

    Everyone stating it should take 7 minutes to heat the water is assuming the circulator is not running until the water hits 180°, which is how it's supposed to work. If it's running long before it hits 180° that would definitely help explain the long time to get up to temperature because you are heating the house with that relatively low temperature water, basically shedding the BTU's that everyone is assuming are going into the boiler only.

    That is unless I'm missing something in your description of operation.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    TerrSMikeAmann
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,776
    For the record those contacts came from the HVAC-TALK Web site contractor locator.
    TerrS
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    Just to be clear, you don't want the circulator running based on time, it should run based on water temperature, in your case that should be ~180° before the circulator turns on. Everyone stating it should take 7 minutes to heat the water is assuming the circulator is not running until the water hits 180°, which is how it's supposed to work. If it's running long before it hits 180° that would definitely help explain the long time to get up to temperature because you are heating the house with that relatively low temperature water, basically shedding the BTU's that everyone is assuming are going into the boiler only. That is unless I'm missing something in your description of operation.

    There has never been that option on my boiler. Even with the old Honeywell l8124. T-stat calls for heat, circulator starts, then the boiler fires. For 30 years it's been that way and many service technicians later it's still basically that way.

    When I had the Beckett installed we introduced those delays as to help. Remember boiler tank is only around 6 gallon. The systems zones make up the other 7.8 or so gallons.

    So unless you can tell me how to change that or what to add, I can't even ask for it.

    Again as a homeowner who has done some research is still very much lost.
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 959
    @KC_Jones The 7 minute was to point out that the volume of water in the system really doesn't matter. It takes barely any energy to raise the temperature of the existing water and that's from a cold start, which is really not whats going to happen. The boiler will be most likely warm on every heat demand if not hot. She stated that it took 30 minutes to go from a cold start to 120 degrees (@Terr, am i right on that?). Now with a time delay on the circulator it should raise the water in the boiler even faster as the water is not moving.

    TerrS
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @pedmec yes correct.  So I probably need to explain some more here. I stated it but didn't make it a point.

    So I use a single programmable t-stat. From 5:30am to 9am I heat the house to 68 degrees. Then Everyone leaves for work, I set to 64, until 3pm -10pm it's back to 68. Then 10pm to 5:30am it's back to 64. Saturday and Sundays it's 68 degrees except from 10pm to 6am it back to 64.

    This was because my bills and therm usage was even higher before this. So I will agree with you after the initial cold starts, and during those 68 degree time-frames the boiler probably doesn't start at 64 degrees like it's sitting at right now, if I was to turn on the boiler.

    So following my logic two cold starts a day, unless it's really cold and my house drops lower than 64, the boiler doesn't fire. And following everyone's thoughts as to really how long it should take would make great sense. But taking 40 minutes gets lost in the logic.

    And I need to find that explanation
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,691
    TerrS said:

    @KC_Jones that 2min delay has only been introduced since adding the Beckett 7610. This helped only a little, it also runs the circulator after the t-stat is satisfied for 3 minutes because I was wasting spent energy in the boiler if it just got to 180 and the t-stat said I'm good, shut off. Again it's been this way forever, because as a homeowner I didn't know better. Now getting higher bills means I am taking a serious look at why and this thread has really shed light on potential issues.

    @pecmsg thanks I will contact 2 of those clos


    I don't know if it has been asked, but what is your system cold fill pressure? Since I see now you are heating an attic that would be three stories tall. Your initial cold fill pressure should be @ 18 PSI. and not the typical 12PSI. along with the air charge on the diaphragm expansion tank. If your fill pressure is not high enough you will not have any water circulation on the third floor attic.

    Its at 20psi.



    can we revisit this a moment?
    are you seeing 20 with the boiler on? circ running ?
    can you shut it all off a minute and check that pressure again ?
    known to beat dead horses
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,024
    The key piece of information is still missing, the heat loss of the individual rooms or zones and the total. Only with that could we determining how much heat emitter is required, operating temperature, pump size, required, etc, etc.

    It seem regardless of when the circ starts, a boiler twice the size of the radiation should catch that load quickly, depending of course on the heat load at the time. Certainly in days under design, 80% of the year, it should be minutes to get up above condensing temperatures.

    Either the boiler output is constipated, or the connected piping and emitters and load is much larger?.

    Here is an example of the proper design sim, enter the room loads in BTU/ hr and to program shows required fin tube, operating condition, etc..

    Isn't Ray Wolfarth in the Pittsburg area. Maybe he could help, or know a local knowledgable hydronics person.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,250
    Ray's profile page:
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/profile/raywohlfarth
    Ray's website:
    https://fireiceheat.com/
    Ray's contact information:
    email: ray@fireiceheat.com
    phone: 412.343.4110
    I DIY.
    MikeAmann
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    neilc said:
    can we revisit this a moment? are you seeing 20 with the boiler on? circ running ? can you shut it all off a minute and check that pressure again ?
    Cold boiler it's sits at 20. Hot boiler sits at 25, a relief valve pops at 30

  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    @hot_rod agree in maybe the short-term and maybe long-term.

    But when you say my 124ft of emitters, have you considered that 300ft of exposed un insulated supply and return 3/4 pipe running throughout my house?

    We still don't understand, maybe, if I am heating 13.8 gallons of water while it's trying to also heat the house takes 40 minutes. But I  think that is the crux of the why. It's not just big pot, with 150k btus under it. It's 6 gallons always getting refreshed, until finally the return water is within 10-15 degrees  of the supply water, then the boiler is in control and not playing catchup.
  • TerrS
    TerrS Member Posts: 172
    WMno57 said:
    Ray's profile page: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/profile/raywohlfarth Ray's website: https://fireiceheat.com/ Ray's contact information: email: ray@fireiceheat.com phone: 412.343.4110

    Thanks just messaged him also