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Weils-Mclain eg/peg-45 with bad near boiler piping

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Ucuellar2011
Ucuellar2011 Member Posts: 7
edited October 2022 in Strictly Steam
Hello,

I am new home owner. The home was built in the 1850's and has a 1-pipe steam system last winter it ran horribly with plenty of water hammer and short cycling i believe. I have purchased The lost art of steam heating book and have been reading thru it. I think my pressuretrol needs to be swapped out since the minimum setting is 1.5 psi , i was thinking of swapping it with a honeywell vaporstat that goes down to .5 psi. The next issue that i think that is a huge problem is the near boiler piping. The risers feed two independent mains, from what i have read this is wrong, i believe it should be that both riser's meet at the header in a parallel configuration, have an outlet from the header feeding the steam mains, and finalized with an equalizer tied into the hartford loop. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.






Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,313
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    Well... a vapourstat might help, though with 1 pipe steam 1.5 psi cutout and 07 psi cutin should work.

    But...

    As you have surmised, that near boiler piping is pretty ghastly. Steam is pretty forgiving -- but not that forgiving. I'm not a bit surprised you have hammering and other assorted problems -- some of which you may not even be aware of.

    Oddly, a good steam person who was clever with their tools could fix it without major hassle.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Ucuellar2011
    Ucuellar2011 Member Posts: 7
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    Thank you jamie. Ive been learning a lot reading the lost art. Its crazy that it even works without an equalizer if i understand what im reading.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
    edited October 2022
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    I wouldn't worry about the pressuretrol as long as it's operating.

    The problem is your near boiler piping is fantastically incorrect. Have a look in the book at the near boiler piping examples. Notice you have no header at all, and no equalizer.

    Your boiler is likely ramming gallons of water into your mains and that's causing your hammer problem. The header (that you don't have) serves to separate the steam being produced from the water that is sloshing around so that only the steam gets to your mains and to your radiators.

    Do you have any main vents? If not, that's exacerbating your cycling problem. Also I wonder if the boiler is oversized which would also add to the cycling.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • Ucuellar2011
    Ucuellar2011 Member Posts: 7
    edited October 2022
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    @ethicalpaul Thank you for your reply, it's good to know the pressuretrol might be okay and the near boiler piping being more of a culprit. No there are no main vent's another thing i think needs to be added in, additionally i have to calculate the edr, because i do suspect it is over sized, a little more background the house is split into a two apartments each with it's own boiler " both are piped in this fashion", and each apartment is about 1500 sq feet with 10 foot ceilings and 6.5 foot tall windows, but from what i gather that is irrelevant "size of house" since the radiator EDR is the limiting factor. Thank you for helping me, ive got a lot to learn.

    p.s if the boiler is grossly oversized would it be beneficial to tie in both apartments into one of the boilers?

    Thank you.
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,287
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    @Ucuellar2011, I've merged your two posts here so it doesn't lead to confusion. Thanks.
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,660
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    I hate when people post pictures of their boiler and I want to give them a disagree because they have had involvement with a contractor that couldn't read the manual.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,660
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    If the boiler is very oversized and the combined size of the systems matches one boiler connecting them to one boiler would solve that part of the problem. Since someone split up the system and someone piped the boiler without even the slightest apparent knowledge of steam, someone that understands steam has to look at the whole system to see what else they screwed up when they separated it.
    Ucuellar2011
  • Ucuellar2011
    Ucuellar2011 Member Posts: 7
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    @Erin Holohan Haskell sorry new to the forum, i posted originally posted it in the wrong location under radiant instead of steam.

    @mattmia2 sorry i do not know the contractor the house was like this when i purchased it. I am trying to get an idea of what needs to be done to fix it. Ive been trying to educate myself on these systems.

    I still have to get an accurate EDR number but if I understand this correctly my boiler is rated at 392 sq/ft

    i have 2 H.B smith radiators very similar to these but are dated 1882 if i remember correctly , 9 section i believe 33" tall





    if i am correct they should be at 40 edr per, the other 3 radiators on this system are anywhere from 1/4 to half the size of these " physically looking at them", it might be premature but the boiler might also be grossly oversized.

    Again any help would be greatly appreciated, aside from the loud banging this thing is going to bankrupt me with fuel costs. I just looked at my nest this thing was on 18 hours avg per day and it was still cold in the apartment. Thank you.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,532
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    @Ucuellar2011

    Post your location and check "find a contractor" on this site
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,287
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    No problem, @Ucuellar2011. Welcome to the forum! Here are some tips for posting, etc.: https://heatinghelp.com/forum-user-manual
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • Ucuellar2011
    Ucuellar2011 Member Posts: 7
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    mattmia2 said:

    If the boiler is very oversized and the combined size of the systems matches one boiler connecting them to one boiler would solve that part of the problem. Since someone split up the system and someone piped the boiler without even the slightest apparent knowledge of steam, someone that understands steam has to look at the whole system to see what else they screwed up when they separated it.

    Thank you I missed this response, i think this may be the case in terms of boiler capacity and EDR.

    @Ucuellar2011

    Post your location and check "find a contractor" on this site

    I am in Connecticut, I will be reaching out for a consultation

    Thanks again.
  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 469
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    Post pictures of your other rads as well as dimensions. We may be able to help.
  • Ucuellar2011
    Ucuellar2011 Member Posts: 7
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    Post pictures of your other rads as well as dimensions. We may be able to help.

    Thank you any help is greatly appreciated. I was wrong when i posted the H.B smith i was going off of memory. I think the H.B smith are actually "Bundy" i do have an H.B smith but it is different. These are the radiators on this system i will get the other apartment radiators later today.






















    mattmia2
  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 469
    edited October 2022
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    Picture 1: H.B. Smith. In the Museum section. 3 sq ft/section. So 60 total.

    https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/H.B.Smith-BoilersRadiators-No1444-1929.pdf

    Picture 2: Bundy made by A.A. Griffing Iron Co. It's in the Museum section. Either 27 or 31.5. Not sure if it's standard or enlarged loop.

    https://archive.org/details/bundyradiatorsfo00aagrrich/page/22/mode/2up?view=theater

    Picture 3: H.B. Smith Princess. Looks like 3.5 sq ft/section. 21 total.

    https://archive.org/details/BoilerAndRadiatorCatalogueNo.1146/page/n63/mode/2up?view=theater

    Picture 4: Novelty Iron Company. Wall radiator. 7 sq ft each. 14 total.

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112047386849&view=1up&seq=171

    Total EDR = 122-126.5

    Since there is metallic paint, that will reduce the heat output by 10-20%, so the effective EDR is 98-114. Take a look at this: https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/does-the-color-of-a-radiator-matter/

    The boiler should still be sized to match the Total EDR above though. Put up the pics of the rads for the other apartment.
    Ucuellar2011Erin Holohan Haskell
  • Ucuellar2011
    Ucuellar2011 Member Posts: 7
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    @random12345

    Thank you so much for your expertise, My wife saw the silver metallic paint at home depot and thought it would look nice, although i agree it looks nice after reading the article you linked i think we are going to repaint them a non-metallic color.

    Gauging from the first unit, I think my boiler is also grossly oversized.

    sorry for the delay here are the pictures of the radiators from the other unit.











    this one looks like a home depot one, doesnt seem vintage














    Thank you again.


  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 469
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    I'm not a pro, just a homeowner who likes to dig things up online.

    Radiator 1: Another Bundy. Looks like 54 or 63 total. 2 rows of 9 loops. Can't tell if it's standard or enlarged.

    https://archive.org/details/bundyradiatorsfo00aagrrich/page/22/mode/2up?view=theater

    Radiator 2 (small 3 tube): This might be from the 1950s. I have one that looks like that in my bathroom. This was a standardized design across the industry so may not be the same manufacturer. Take a picture from the side. There may be a symbol on the bushing on the top, or embossed writing around the tapping on the top or bottom or on the side of the tube on the first or last section. It's 1.75" thick sections, 3 tubes, 25" height, so best guess is 1.6 sq ft/section. Total 12.8.

    Radiator 3: Bundy again. Looks like 1 row of 12 loops. Can't tell if it's standard or enlarged. 36 or 42 total.

    Radiators 4 and 5: Can you look for some writing as above and take some pics? That one pic from the side on the 4th rad is a little blurry. Not sure but looks like Pierce, Butler & Pierce Mfg. Corp. Also pics of both from the sides and a pic of each radiator from the front (the whole thing). The skinny one looks like 1 column. It could be 3 sq ft/section. The fat one looks like 2 column, and could be 4 sq ft/section. Assuming it's from the same company. They are rococo versions of what is shown in the catalog below.

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112047386849&view=1up&seq=188&skin=2021&q1=american




  • random12345
    random12345 Member Posts: 469
    edited October 2022
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    This is a picture of the cross section of a standard vs enlarged loop on the bundy radiator:

    https://archive.org/details/illustrated1890900aagr/page/68/mode/2up?view=theater

    Which one do you think you have on all of yours? I don't think you have the "Extended" surface that's on the page 69 or the "Thompson" on page 74.