Boiler constantly running - Resolved, but should installer absorb part of cost?

jdbs3

2011: Original Buderus GB142 boiler and system components (ZVC 403 for radiant, Tekmar 360 controller, Buderus mixing station, SR 503 for baseboard, etc.) installed.

Jan-2020: Bosch Greenstar gas condensing boiler (ZBR 21-3) replaces Buderus GB142. All other components unchanged.

We purchase house in Apr-2020, and get second boiler service ~May-22. I noted boiler continues to run 24/7/365 even when all thermostats set to OFF, and no DHW call for heat. A cost with the unnecessary use of gas and electric.

HVAC person agrees boiler should not run under those conditions.

Being unfamiliar with boiler and components wiring, and not having access to some wires that terminate in the wall, it took 3 1/2 hours to diagnose and resolve it.

After disconnecting end switches on ZVC 403, Tekmar 360 controller, and SR 503, the boiler (when not in Summer mode) would continue to run. HVAC tech final found 2 red and 2 white wires in the Tekmar box that were not connected to any Tekmar controller terminals. 2 reds were tied together with a wire nut, ditto 2 whites in a separate wire nut.

HVAC tech found that by disconnecting the 2 white wires, the boiler continuously running stopped. Good!

As noted, these 4 wires were not connected to any terminals in the Tekmar 360. They were just terminating in the box. One of the red/white pair could be traced back to the boiler. Where the other pair terminate is still an unknown.

In summary:

- When the installer (same company as HVAC tech) installed the boiler, no one took the time to check if there was no call for heat, that the boiler stopped running.

- The bill for 3 1/2 hours is $700, so $100/half hour.

The previous owner had the Bosch boiler installed.

What, if any, obligation should the HVAC company have for something they did not not do when they installed the new boiler 2.5 years ago?

What is the best way to handle something like this?

I appreciate their finding the problem, but feel they should have some responsibility for the cost.

GGross

Seems a bit tricky since you took over the house only 3-months after the install. First thing I would do is contact them, explain what happened, hopefully they just do the right thing.

If not and you want to pursue further.. You need to know what was originally covered in the contract.
Was the job done as "Time and Material"? If yes you are basically out of luck as this would be something they would have just billed you for at install.
Was there any warranty for workmanship in the original contract? If yes was this a "transferrable" warranty meaning that it goes to whoever is the current owner, not original owner (uncommon)

You should also be aware that since you are not the original owner, the manufacturers warranty is generally considered void. You should ask the contractor for a copy of the original installation bill before you stir the pot, this way you always have proof of the date of install should you part ways with this contractor.

Jamie Hall

First off, you have fixed the symptom. Good! Now the question is, why were those wires spliced like that -- red to red and white to white. It's VERY unlikely that that was done by accident or just to tidy things up. Those wires go somewhere and connect to something.

I'd lay odds that something else will not work properly now. Don't know what it's going to be, but something will. For what little it's worth, it wasn't working properly before, either -- and that is the cause of your problem, IMHO.

What to do now? Well, I'd say to carry on. Find what those wires were doing, and what else isn't working the way it should (for what it's worth, as a start, red and white are usually -- but not always -- from a thermostat or zone valve to the boiler run command -- but whatever that may not be the problem).

As to who is at fault, you have no clue at the moment, since you really don't know what the problem is.

HomerJSmith

Doesn't hurt to politely ask, stating your costs and concerns.

Jamie Hall

"What, if any, obligation should the HVAC company have for something they did not not do when they installed the new boiler 2.5 years ago?

What is the best way to handle something like this?

I appreciate their finding the problem, but feel they should have some responsibility for the cost."

I might agree with this -- if you and they had found the problem. You haven't. As I said above, you have fixed a symptom. Before you start asking someone to bear the cost, or even part of the cost, for something they did or didn't do, might it not be a good idea to find out what actually is the problem? And if they had anything to do with it at all?

WMno57

What if?
01/2020 Boiler is installed correctly.
02/2020 Previous owner hires day laborer from Home Depot parking lot to move/change thermostat and patch drywall. Pretty it up for the upcoming sale.

109A_5

What if the problem existed back in 2011 ?

Jamie Hall

WMno57 said:

What if?
01/2020 Boiler is installed correctly.
02/2020 Previous owner hires day laborer from Home Depot parking lot to move/change thermostat and patch drywall. Pretty it up for the upcoming sale.

109A_5 said:

What if the problem existed back in 2011 ?

Both of these are among the possibilities... among a number of others. Or, to put it perhaps a little more briefly, before you start assigning blame for the problem, it would be a good idea to find out what the problem is.

jdbs3

All GREAT feedback. I am making progress on finding the real problem.

- I've been able to trace most all wire connections. For the 2 pairs of Red and White wires (Red to Red, White to White), one pair is connected to the Bosch boiler and should be at slot # 11, terminals 'F' and 'A' in the Bosch electrical wiring diagram. The other pair are from a bundle of 4 wires (B, G, R, W) that connects to a Tekmar 070 outdoor temperature sensor. The Blue and Green wires in the bundle connect to terminals T16 and T17 in the Tekmar 360 controller box.

- So the HVAC tech did solve the Bosch operations symptom (running 24/7/365), but disabled the outdoor temperature sensor for the boiler. The Tekmar 070 outdoor temperature sensor does continue to work properly for the Tekmar 360 and radiant floor zones.

- Since I am not an HVAC person, Bosch will not allow me to talk to their technical support. Ironic that I have had great conversations with Tekmar, Viega, Taco, and Danfoss technical support, etc. But I digress.

So i am having an email dialogue (allowed) with Bosch technical support. I have 4 questions out to them today regarding what I have found. Hopefully their reply will give me more insight into what the real problem is.

Stay tuned!

And thanks to all for your help to date!

EdTheHeaterMan

I as a contractor, would correct the problem that my installer caused by incorrectly wiring from 3 years ago. Especially having a record of the problem from the previous year.

On the other hand the company that purchased my business, would not honor that under any warranty because it is over 1 year since the original installation. It is all in the way a company owner preceves his roll in the situation.

As an example; A new boiler (Bosch) was installed for an 80 year old customer. The factory default settings for outdoor reset would not allow the room temperature to rise above 72°F. The old woman wanted to be comfortable and set the temperature to 82° and complained that the new boiler did not work. 3 different service technicians checked the boiler operation at 3 different times within the first year. They found that the boiler was operating properly. The fact that the old gal on blood thinners was forever cold didn't matter. So the second and third service calls were deemed nuisance calls and were not warranty problems. The bill for each of those service visits were unusually high IMHO.

This was installed before I made settlement on my sale and this was a customer of the purchasing contractor. (Not My Customer)

Since I was there on the next phone call from that customer and she said "I was going to buy an air conditioner from you but since your heaters don't work maybe not" The CSR took the message as a lead for new AC. When I called her back, I heard the whole story. Since My roll in the new company was as a salesman, I was not permitted to do service calls, so I made an appointment to give her an estimate on a new air conditioner. (the Loophole).

When I arrived I found the Bosch Greenstar operating on outdoor reset and the room temperature was 72° and the thermostat was set on 82° and the customer was bundled up in several blankets. I was not familiar with this model boiler so I called Bosch Tech Support and they walked me thru disabling the ODR so the boiler will operate "like the old one" according to Bosch tech support.

The old gal was so happy with her heater getting the house up to 80° that she called to tell the boss I was the only one that knew how to fix her boiler. Mr. J called me into the office to find out why I was making repairs on boilers. I explained that 1. I was ther for an AC estimate. and 2. The boiler was not set up for the customer needs, and I found out how to set it up so I did it for her to save the company money. No need to send a mechanic out since I was there and I learned how to push buttons a long time ago. And this would most likely be a warranty issue.

I could see his frustration when I asked him about the two warranty service calls that were overcharged to the 80 YO customer. He then agreed to refund one of the service call charges (But still kept the other over charged service call money.)

I knew then that this was not going to be a good fit for me and at the end of the 1 year of service to the company included in the purchase agreement, I asked that we not renew the employment for another year.


It is all in the way a boss sees the customer. Is that customer going to be a source of income? Or is the customer going to be a loyal customer that needs to be treated fairly?

According to Mr. J... I gave away too much stuff. Including Labor

@jdbs3 You may have a contractor like Mr. J, or you may have one like me. All you can do is ask!

One of my questions would be to ask if the car he was driving had a factory defect, and the dealer did not have information on the problem yet. Then he was charged for repairs that did not solve the problem. Then later he found out that the repairs that did not work were not necessary but the factory authorized a different repair that did solve the problem. "Would you be happy with paying $?00.00 dollars for something that is supposed to be free?"

GGross

@EdTheHeaterMan
That is a great story Ed. This comes up fairly regularly in my area and it always fascinates me how many people can go check out these boilers, that they installed, set up to run on an ODR curve, that they programmed, not figure out what the issue is, and still bill the customer. And then along comes Ed, who didn't know about that specific boiler and had the simple common sense to call the manufacturer and ask.

When the dust settles on these jobs the installer usually just swears off ODR and never uses it ever again, rather than learn about it and make use of the function correctly to avoid future misapplication.

EdTheHeaterMan

I was just thinking. The 4 wires that were mentioned above that corrected the constant running problem. One pair goes to a sensor, the other pair goes "Back to the boiler". Have you tried operating the boiler for heat yet? You may find that the boiler will not operate in heat mode because the pair that goes back the the boiler are not connected to anything. If that pair is for space heating, then they should be connected to the Tekmar somewhere. I'm not sure if I saw that the pair that goes back to the boiler has been connected to the Tekmar. You want to check that out before you go for the refund. Before pissing-off the contractor with this problem, make sure it really works.

Jamie Hall

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I was just thinking. The 4 wires that were mentioned above that corrected the constant running problem. One pair goes to a sensor, the other pair goes "Back to the boiler". Have you tried operating the boiler for heat yet? You may find that the boiler will not operate in heat mode because the pair that goes back the the boiler are not connected to anything. If that pair is for space heating, then they should be connected to the Tekmar somewhere. I'm not sure if I saw that the pair that goes back to the boiler has been connected to the Tekmar. You want to check that out before you go for the refund. Before pissing-off the contractor with this problem, make sure it really works.

That's kind of what I was trying to get at, @EdTheHeaterMan . They have cured the symptom -- at least the boiler doesn't run when they don't want it to -- but I doubt very much that they have found, never mind cured, the problem.

JakeCK

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I as a contractor, would correct the problem that my installer caused by incorrectly wiring from 3 years ago. Especially having a record of the problem from the previous year. On the other hand the company that purchased my business, would not honor that under any warranty because it is over 1 year since the original installation. It is all in the way a company owner preceves his roll in the situation. As an example; A new boiler (Bosch) was installed for an 80 year old customer. The factory default settings for outdoor reset would not allow the room temperature to rise above 72°F. The old woman wanted to be comfortable and set the temperature to 82° and complained that the new boiler did not work. 3 different service technicians checked the boiler operation at 3 different times within the first year. They found that the boiler was operating properly. The fact that the old gal on blood thinners was forever cold didn't matter. So the second and third service calls were deemed nuisance calls and were not warranty problems. The bill for each of those service visits were unusually high IMHO. This was installed before I made settlement on my sale and this was a customer of the purchasing contractor. (Not My Customer) Since I was there on the next phone call from that customer and she said "I was going to buy an air conditioner from you but since your heaters don't work maybe not" The CSR took the message as a lead for new AC. When I called her back, I heard the whole story. Since My roll in the new company was as a salesman, I was not permitted to do service calls, so I made an appointment to give her an estimate on a new air conditioner. (the Loophole). When I arrived I found the Bosch Greenstar operating on outdoor reset and the room temperature was 72° and the thermostat was set on 82° and the customer was bundled up in several blankets. I was not familiar with this model boiler so I called Bosch Tech Support and they walked me thru disabling the ODR so the boiler will operate "like the old one" according to Bosch tech support. The old gal was so happy with her heater getting the house up to 80° that she called to tell the boss I was the only one that knew how to fix her boiler. Mr. J called me into the office to find out why I was making repairs on boilers. I explained that 1. I was ther for an AC estimate. and 2. The boiler was not set up for the customer needs, and I found out how to set it up so I did it for her to save the company money. No need to send a mechanic out since I was there and I learned how to push buttons a long time ago. And this would most likely be a warranty issue. I could see his frustration when I asked him about the two warranty service calls that were overcharged to the 80 YO customer. He then agreed to refund one of the service call charges (But still kept the other over charged service call money.) I knew then that this was not going to be a good fit for me and at the end of the 1 year of service to the company included in the purchase agreement, I asked that we not renew the employment for another year. It is all in the way a boss sees the customer. Is that customer going to be a source of income? Or is the customer going to be a loyal customer that needs to be treated fairly? According to Mr. J... I gave away too much stuff. Including Labor @jdbs3 You may have a contractor like Mr. J, or you may have one like me. All you can do is ask! One of my questions would be to ask if the car he was driving had a factory defect, and the dealer did not have information on the problem yet. Then he was charged for repairs that did not solve the problem. Then later he found out that the repairs that did not work were not necessary but the factory authorized a different repair that did solve the problem. "Would you be happy with paying $?00.00 dollars for something that is supposed to be free?"

Not to hijack this but this pisses me off on multiple levels. 

First off how do professional HVAC techs not know what an odr is? I'm just a homeowner with an interest in this kind of thing and understand their purpose and function. 

Second any kind of technology or project I'm working on has to survive what I call the Grandma Test. Years ago when I applied this test I would have my own grandmother in mind. This was a women that only two topics would ever get her to swear, the damn NY Yankees, and those damned computers. Computers were really beyond her understanding and she really hated them. Today I think of my mother who is approaching 70. When she comes over to watch the kids and wants to just sit down and watch her morning news shows she doesn't want to have to figure out how to launch a space shuttle into space using a touch screen remote. Or fiddle with a smart phone to turn on the lights. These things need to always work the way they always have regardless of internet connection or a VM crashing on the server or whatever.

That same logic applies when dealing with an 80 year old who expects the house to be at what ever temperature they want it at. To those techs that signed off on everything working as designed I would ask them if their grandmother wanted the house at 85 on a day that is 20 below design and the house was only staying at 70 would you really walk out and say all is well, deal with it?

If I would have said that to my grandmother she'd beat me with a wooden spoon or a yardstick. She had an unlimited supply of both too.

Jamie Hall

Seems to me this is symptomatic, @JakeCK , of a much wider -- and from my point of view, anyway, worse problem. There is a certain elitist mind set which assumes that -- whatever the topic may be -- they are the enlightened ones, and the rest of us don't appreciate their brilliance and beneficence.

It's not too bad when -- as in the example above -- it is possible to override their silly games. But it isn't always possible to do that, and they get very upset when people do (how dare the peasants challenge our wisdom!) and then work hard to make sure that it can't happen again, or that if it does the peasant will be very sorry.

JakeCK

Computer nerds have a tendency to go on power trips, and as you said form an elitist mindset. 

I should know, I am one. :P The $*** I heard fall out of other nerds mouths while in college only reinforced that belief. One of the professors who taught java once told our class that she believes good programmers need to have a quirk or something in their brain to really understand what was going on in the machine. I feel she was unknowingly referring to the anti social behaviors many nerds display...

But this really isn't relevant to this topic or Ed's post.

hot_rod

jdbs3 said:

All GREAT feedback. I am making progress on finding the real problem.

- I've been able to trace most all wire connections. For the 2 pairs of Red and White wires (Red to Red, White to White), one pair is connected to the Bosch boiler and should be at slot # 11, terminals 'F' and 'A' in the Bosch electrical wiring diagram. The other pair are from a bundle of 4 wires (B, G, R, W) that connects to a Tekmar 070 outdoor temperature sensor. The Blue and Green wires in the bundle connect to terminals T16 and T17 in the Tekmar 360 controller box.

- So the HVAC tech did solve the Bosch operations symptom (running 24/7/365), but disabled the outdoor temperature sensor for the boiler. The Tekmar 070 outdoor temperature sensor does continue to work properly for the Tekmar 360 and radiant floor zones.

- Since I am not an HVAC person, Bosch will not allow me to talk to their technical support. Ironic that I have had great conversations with Tekmar, Viega, Taco, and Danfoss technical support, etc. But I digress.

So i am having an email dialogue (allowed) with Bosch technical support. I have 4 questions out to them today regarding what I have found. Hopefully their reply will give me more insight into what the real problem is.

Stay tuned!

And thanks to all for your help to date!

You might call a Bosch rep. They often know as much, sometime more than the factory guys as they are out in the field all the time, chatting with installers, etc.

EdTheHeaterMan

Agree with Jamie and Jake.

I was raised by a business man that had a work ethic that was instilled in me; do the best job you can, For a fair price. I have met too many businessmen that just look at the bottom line. The worker spent the time on the job, so someone needs to pay for it. even if the result was unsuccessful.

I was taught to add a small percentage into the price of every job to account for warranty repair cost. Warranty fell into 3 categories. Manufacturer defect. Installer error, and customer error. If the manufacturer gave you a bad part, they will give you a replacement but I needed to make the repair. If I installed it wrong then I had to make the repair. If I didn't explain to the customer how the system worked and he did something wrong, I had to repair it. I charge the full repair price on the invoice for that warranty repair. I would charge-off the repair to a warranty account. W1 W2 or W3. At the end of the year I would look at how much warranty work was completed, then charged off to the "W" accounts. This way a customer could see how much the warranty saved them.

Compare the total of the overall warranty percentage added into all the installation job prices to the amount charge-off in the W accounts. If I was short, the next year the warranty expense percentage was increased. If I was over, then I could stay the same or reduce and that savings was added the overall profit of my installations. The Warranty expense was never more than 3% of the job total. And was as low as 2% in other years. But the "Fair Price" included warranty work and I got paid for each warranty call indirectly. A business owner who does not look at it this way may have the perception that every warranty call is money lost, and will react accordingly to those mechanics and customers that use up those profits, as my Mr. J example above.

That accounting idea was from a Doc Rusk course I took in the 1980s understanding the concept lets you believe that all warranty repairs are already paid for when the job was priced.

jdbs3

Closing the loop on the boiler issue …

While I do not know where the Tekmar 070 outdoor temperature sensor is connected to the Bosch wiring board, piecing it together, I now know the following:

- In 2011, a Buderus GB142 gas condensing boiler was installed.
- In Jan-20, the GB 142 was replaced with a Bosch Greenstar gas condensing boiler.
- We purchased house in Apr-20. The previous owners leave the Bosch installation manual, and a schematic that shows the components and connections for the GB142 install.
- The schematic shows an outdoor temperature sensor connected to an AM 10 module in the GB142. This would be the Tekmar 070 outdoor sensor.
- The Tekmar 070 only requires 2 wires, but the installers in 2011 used 4-wire electrical wire. Blue and Green connect to the Tekmar 360 T16 and T17 for the radiant floor zones. Red and White were connected to a Red and White wire that was connected to the GB142 AM 10 module.
- Quoting Bosch technical support (from 2 days ago) “Without the CRC200 [Programmable Room Control for Greenstar Boilers] or the older FW200, the outdoor sensor is useless. The tekmar sensor will no[t] work because it has different values than the sensor used on the greenstar.”

In Jan-20, when the HVAC company installed the new boiler, they had to know there was an outdoor sensor; they disconnected it from the old boiler. And they had to know that an outdoor sensor could be attached to the Bosch boiler; so they connected it to the new boiler.

NOTE: Unfortunately, I did not take a close look at the wiring to the Bosch boiler when the HVAC tech had the electrical wiring board visible. So the above is an assumption, but it all seems to fit.

There are 2 issues with the 2020 HVAC company installation:

- No one checked whether the Tekmar 070 outdoor sensor was compatible with the new boiler.

And, more importantly,

- No one checked (a normal operation) whether the boiler turned off when there is no thermostat or DHW call for heat.

Fast forward to Spring of this year when I am trying to understand more about how the system works so I can ask the HVAC person on the yearly boiler maintenance call. I find the boiler always running when not in Summer Mode. $700 later, the symptom (24/7/365 running) is resolved, and the actual problem is now understood by me.

It should be an interesting conversion with the HVAC company next week. I can understand the installers not being aware of the incompatibility between the outdoor sensor and the new boiler.

But I can not understand, and can not accept, how they could install a new boiler and not check (a basic operation) whether it turned off when it should. If they had, then they would have found the outdoor sensor incompatibility and fixed the problem. They could have either sold the previous homeowner a new outdoor sensor, or eliminated the wiring to avoid future confusion.

Arg!

Thank you for all your comment! I’ll post an update after I speak with the HVAC company.


And a P.S. Whatever HVAC company installed the original system also did not take the time to set-up the Tekmar 360 controller correctly. Two problems I found are:

- Terminal Unit parameter is set to Baseboard, when the Tekmar is controlling Low Mass Radiant zones.
- The Tekmar 082 boiler sensor is on the boiler return pipe, but a DIP switch on the Tekmar controller is set to Supply. So the Tekmar thinks it is monitoring the boiler supply water temperature.

Both of these are a one minute fix. And I am in dialogue with Tekmar to understand how the DIP switch setting (Supply or Return) effect the Tekmar and radiant floor zone operations.

I only mention them here as 2 more examples of poor installation by whichever HVAC company installed the GB142.

Jamie Hall

Got to admit that it does sound as though the installers were a little... um... sloppy?

jdbs3

Closing the loop one final time. ...

Met with the HVAC person and explained situation as I described above. I also noted that an explanation for why the installer did not check whether the boiler turned off when there was no thermostat or DHW call for heat, might be because it was December, 2019, the middle of winter.

The HVAC tech understood what had happened, especially the resistance mismatch between the Tekmar 360 outdoor sensor and the Bosch CRC200 outdoor sensor. I was able to show him the resistance tables for each sensor, as well as the Bosch tech support reply that clearly stated how this could have caused the boiler to constantly run.

The tech went back and talked with his manager and the manger for all departments. A few days later I received a letter noting they had written off the entire $700 to warranty service, under the circumstances, the right thing to do.

Thanks to all for your feedback!