Going to stick with oil this winter, hope I dont regret

Solid_Fuel_Man

Jamie Hall said:

I wish I had time this morning (it's Sunday, and there are other things which need doing) to write a complete refutation of the 30% savings in BTU usage by switching the fuel source from oil to LP. I don't. All I do want to say is that, all else being equal, sorry. No. I might buy 10%, for hot water or air if you can have enough radiation to always operate in full condensing mode and you weren't before. Otherwise, No. Sweeping generalisations don't help the clients, they don't help other pros, they don't help the industry.

I hope you were not reading that from what I said. I never said anything about 30% savings. Just that LP has a 30% reduction in BTU/gal. 

 I'm just stating my own customers usages. This is low temp (radiant) installs which had been heated by oil boilers, one was a 3 pass and the other a system 2000. Well maintained. 

Gallons of LP were within 5% of what oil had previously been. So I'm saying the price/gallon of oil and LP can be directly compared in those circumstances. 

Jamie Hall

As I think I said, if you switched to a mod/con I can easily see a 10% reduction -- no problem. There are simply too many variables involved to determine the source of the remaining 15% or so -- starting with the exact weather variations involved (actual outdoor temperatures, mean and peak wind speeds, total hours and distribution of insolation -- just to name three). Then there's possible variations in boiler efficiency -- despite being well maintained -- never mind loss of efficiency in the boiler from cycling to maintain proper temperatures... just too many variables.

In_New_England

Dave Carpentier said:

Aborting the upgrade to modcon gas (propane) w/buffer tank for this season.
-seems to be difficult finding a contractor that will just hook up the parts I supply (is hourly work just not a thing ?) (combine that with- forced air guys are everywhere, boiler guys a little harder to find)
-no govt rebate/incentive for what I need currently, maybe next year ?
-bill would have come in around 4 or 5 large.. bad time to sink cash maybe
-natural gas line didnt extend to our road this year, maybe next year (would avoid setting up for propane and then re-do with natgas later)
-hoping that oil prices will be more stable than gas this winter ?

So, Roth tank will be installed (ins requirement).
Hope I dont kick myself for this in a few months..

Dave Carpentier said:

Aborting the upgrade to modcon gas (propane) w/buffer tank for this season.
-seems to be difficult finding a contractor that will just hook up the parts I supply (is hourly work just not a thing ?) (combine that with- forced air guys are everywhere, boiler guys a little harder to find)
-no govt rebate/incentive for what I need currently, maybe next year ?
-bill would have come in around 4 or 5 large.. bad time to sink cash maybe
-natural gas line didnt extend to our road this year, maybe next year (would avoid setting up for propane and then re-do with natgas later)
-hoping that oil prices will be more stable than gas this winter ?

So, Roth tank will be installed (ins requirement).
Hope I dont kick myself for this in a few months..

We have oil fired high temperature baseboard head.

I was all set for a move to a gas boiler but the gas line extension took forever and before the city approved the permit my tank started to leak, so instead, I get to replace my oil tank. Looks like I'm holding onto my oil system until the boiler breaks.

The economics of the gas conversion (using then current energy prices) was even-steven i.e. I calculated that (the upfront cost - the fuel cost savings) would equal the cost to replace the existing oil system as various parts broke.

I'm still a little sore at all the effort I put into getting the project together and then was stalled by NatGrid and the city and then this happened, but perhaps it's for the best.

Maybe when the boiler breaks I will look into air-water heat pumps ...

Dave Carpentier

In_New_England said:

Maybe when the boiler breaks I will look into air-water heat pumps ...

I'd love to go with ground-source heat pump, I have the perfect space for it and the in-floor would love it.
Its too cold here for air-source.

Hot_water_fan

Its too cold here for air-source. 

Not really - a competent installer can install back up electric and/or combustion backup for the low % of the year it’s needed. Usually the cheaper route vs ground source.

WMno57

Hot_water_fan said:

Its too cold here for air-source. 

Not really - a competent installer can install back up electric and/or combustion backup for the low % of the year it’s needed.

You have 750 posts here, and have not started a single thread.
My family has two homes that I believe MIGHT be possible candidates to go all electric. I have a lot of doubts.
START YOUR OWN NEW THREAD SHOWING US YOUR HEAT PUMP. WE NEED PICTURES. WE NEED DATA. HOW HOT IS THE AIR COMING OUT OF THE REGISTERS? HOW BIG ARE THE BREAKERS IN YOUR PANEL?
This is directed at you and all the other "heat pump cheerleaders" on the wall. I'm not going to make any decisions based on posts from someone from California (who might not even own a snow shovel) who lectures everyone else, but is too cheap to do the things he wants to force everyone else to do.
SHOW ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jamie Hall

@WMno57 , I have an experiment going in the main property I care for. No data yet. What I have done is install a Carrier 4 head minisplit heat pump in an apartment which is part of the main structure. Primary heat is steam, and is likely to remain so, however the heat pump is intended to provide the tenant of that apartment the ability to run her space warmer than the rest of the structure.

So far it is working as intended -- but it hasn't gotten to cold weather yet, so I have no useful thoughts on what it will do when it does get cold.

As to the air coming out of the units -- well, it's warm. Not hot, warm. Nothing like the warmth of a radiator, but it is warm.

How big are the breakers on the panel? Since Carrier suggests fuses rather than breakers, and since the rest of the panels (except one) are all fuses, it has fuses: a pair of 50 amp.

I would note that I am NOT a heat pump cheerleader -- nor any other system cheerleader; I try very hard to recommend the best solution for the specific situation, whatever that may be, if asked for a recommendation.

ChrisJ

@Jamie Hall You've started many threads and I think tend to back up what you say whenever possible.

pecmsg

After 22 years in this house My wife finally got Central air (at least on the 2nd floor) It is a heat pump. Its been mild here but very comfortable on the 2nd floor. I estimate my balance point is between 15 - 20° ambient. Well see.

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

After 22 years in this house My wife finally got Central air (at least on the 2nd floor) It is a heat pump. Its been mild here but very comfortable on the 2nd floor. I estimate my balance point is between 15 - 20° ambient. Well see.

So,
You do refrigeration for a living, I think residential?
And for 22 years you didn't install central air for your wife?


Hmmm.

Hot_water_fan

@WMno57 breathe . We’re helping people with heat, not in debate club. 

It’s this model: 

https://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUrl=http://s3.amazonaws.com/enter.mehvac.com/DAMRoot/Original/10006\M_SUBMITTAL_SVZ-KP24NA_SUZ-KA24NAHZ_en.pdf

Not the most efficient model one can find, but plenty for my needs. 

20 AMP breaker I believe. Don’t know or care about register temperature, but it feels warmer than the furnace it replaced, mostly because the cfm is much lower. I don’t spend much time standing front of the registers . Data I have. It’s about 2.75 annual COP, because I can compare kwh/HDD of the heat pump vs. therms/HDD of the old furnace.  The coldest temp it has seen is 9F I believe. It has no resistance backup and doesn’t need it. If I had to ballpark it (gas prices change monthly here), I’ll save in the 40% range vs using natural gas this winter. YMMV. Obviously, having AC is a bonus. I’m happy to answer other questions. 

You should do your own independent research though! I’m perfectly happy with it and the EIA says heat pumps are the second most common heating method in the US after gas furnaces, so plenty of others must be too. Like I pointed out above, you can use a hybrid system as well if all electric causes too much anxiety. 

Dave Carpentier

Here (5 hours north of Minneapolis) a ccASHP would need to cycle defrost and then eventually shut down in late Dec and then come back online in early Mar. Using strip electric heat would be risky in the case of power outages (we get a few every year) where you cant back it up with a generator (okay, an affordable generator..).
A hybrid ccAshp with gas backup -or- A Gshp with electric auxiliary heat seems to me to be the premium solution. Afaik, with a gshp you only have to supplement with watts and not replace.

Hot_water_fan

Here (5 hours north of Minneapolis) a ccASHP would need to cycle defrost and then eventually shut down in late Dec and then come back online in early Mar.

It’s under -14 for 2+ months? Defrost isn’t a big deal. Agreed a hybrid would be best 

Jamie Hall

Hot_water_fan said:

Here (5 hours north of Minneapolis) a ccASHP would need to cycle defrost and then eventually shut down in late Dec and then come back online in early Mar.

It’s under -14 for 2+ months? Defrost isn’t a big deal. Agreed a hybrid would be best 

It is indeed, at least at night. Been there, done that, love the country, not too keen on the winters.

pecmsg

ChrisJ said:

After 22 years in this house My wife finally got Central air (at least on the 2nd floor) It is a heat pump. Its been mild here but very comfortable on the 2nd floor. I estimate my balance point is between 15 - 20° ambient. Well see.

So, You do refrigeration for a living, I think residential? And for 22 years you didn't install central air for your wife? Hmmm.

Commercial Refrigeration. 

Last thing I wanted at the end of the day was working on my unit. Window units are a few hundred, cheap changeout. 

Dave Carpentier

Hot_water_fan said:

It’s under -14 for 2+ months?

Well, not steady that cold. It'll easily hit that for 12 hrs overnight, then climb above... then repeat.
Having a ccAshp doing its best to try and run in the day time ,only to shut down and go supercold each evening, then try to start up the next day when it's only marginally 'warmer'.. seems like a way to send the unit into an early grave.
The other problem with electric strip heat here is my supply. We only have 125a service, and use electrical for cooking, hot water and a water pump. I think 70k btu via electric would be maybe 80 amps ?

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

ChrisJ said:

pecmsg said:

After 22 years in this house My wife finally got Central air (at least on the 2nd floor) It is a heat pump. Its been mild here but very comfortable on the 2nd floor. I estimate my balance point is between 15 - 20° ambient. Well see.

So,
You do refrigeration for a living, I think residential?
And for 22 years you didn't install central air for your wife?


Hmmm.

Commercial Refrigeration. 

Last thing I wanted at the end of the day was working on my unit. Window units are a few hundred, cheap changeout. 

I can understand that.
But......window units suck for multiple reasons.

JakeCK

Jamie Hall said:

Hot_water_fan said:

Here (5 hours north of Minneapolis) a ccASHP would need to cycle defrost and then eventually shut down in late Dec and then come back online in early Mar.

It’s under -14 for 2+ months? Defrost isn’t a big deal. Agreed a hybrid would be best 

It is indeed, at least at night. Been there, done that, love the country, not too keen on the winters.

I once dated a girl who lived by Minneapolis. Spent an x-mas and new years up there once. Got on the plane at CLE while it was little under 40F, had a hoodie on. Got off of it two hours later at MSP and it was about 5f. When they opened the doors to the plane it was like getting punched in the face. Yes I had warmer gear packed, but I wasn't wearing it.

The whole time I was up there I don't think it went above 10f.

It was cold.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

Jamie Hall said:

Hot_water_fan said:

Here (5 hours north of Minneapolis) a ccASHP would need to cycle defrost and then eventually shut down in late Dec and then come back online in early Mar.

It’s under -14 for 2+ months? Defrost isn’t a big deal. Agreed a hybrid would be best 

It is indeed, at least at night. Been there, done that, love the country, not too keen on the winters.

I once dated a girl who lived by Minneapolis. Spent an x-mas and new years up there once. Got on the plane at CLE while it was little under 40F, had a hoodie on. Got off of it two hours later at MSP and it was about 5f. When they opened the doors to the plane it was like getting punched in the face. Yes I had warmer gear packed, but I wasn't wearing it.

The whole time I was up there I don't think it went above 10f.

It was cold.

I tend to wear a t shirt until it gets into the 20s out. Then I'll throw on a light jacket.

reggi

Jamie Hall said:

@WMno57 , I have an experiment going in the main property I care for. No data yet. What I have done is install a Carrier 4 head minisplit heat pump in an apartment which is part of the main structure. Primary heat is steam, and is likely to remain so, however the heat pump is intended to provide the tenant of that apartment the ability to run her space warmer than the rest of the structure. So far it is working as intended -- but it hasn't gotten to cold weather yet, so I have no useful thoughts on what it will do when it does get cold. As to the air coming out of the units -- well, it's warm. Not hot, warm. Nothing like the warmth of a radiator, but it is warm. How big are the breakers on the panel? Since Carrier suggests fuses rather than breakers, and since the rest of the panels (except one) are all fuses, it has fuses: a pair of 50 amp. I would note that I am NOT a heat pump cheerleader -- nor any other system cheerleader; I try very hard to recommend the best solution for the specific situation, whatever that may be, if asked for a recommendation.

The same space is heated by Cedric,  this is to give a Center City Hotel Suite room temperature round the clock feel ?

WMno57

@reggie ,

Jamie Hall said:

provide the tenant of that apartment the ability to run her space

Efficiency is not everything. Sometimes it is prudent to throw a little energy or BTUs to keep the peace.

Jamie Hall

@ChrisJ and @WMno57 -- Cedric holds most of the house at 62. The tenant in question is my somewhat ex (don't ask, very odd arrangement), and a little cost expended there is well worth the effort.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

@ChrisJ and @WMno57 -- Cedric holds most of the house at 62. The tenant in question is my somewhat ex (don't ask, very odd arrangement), and a little cost expended there is well worth the effort.

Since you insist on calling your boiler Cedric, I'm going to start referring to mine as Gladys.

JakeCK

And I'll call mine Bertha. Or was she in the attic...?

Jamie Hall

I've never really thought about naming machinery and the like -- it's just always sort of come natural. Some things seem to get names, and some don't. Most of our cars and trucks have, but not all of them. Two of the tractors do, but not the third. Our boats, of course, and my personal airplane. Perhaps because we've also always had heavy working animals, too (the current pair -- two shires at a ton apiece -- is Sonny and Buddy)? Some of the names have hardly shown great originality or are pretty obvious -- but some (why is one of the tractors always referred to as "Girl"?) take some explaining.

Dave Carpentier

Ive never really named things, but since my boiler is an Olsen, I have indeed gone into the util room for a looksee and said "Everything okay in here Olsen ? "

Solid_Fuel_Man

Stella....she is warm in the winter.

ChrisJ

Looks like ol Gladys will be steaming tonight