Off Topic, but maybe you all can help....electrician

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

@JUGHNE -- do you have any idea how lucky you are to be a local electric utility?

It is hard to get.
You get that, water works and all four railroads and you're in business.

EdTheHeaterMan

ChrisJ said:

@JUGHNE -- do you have any idea how lucky you are to be a local electric utility?

@ChrisJ It is hard to get.
You get that, water works and all four railroads and you're in business.

Until you roll doubles and land on Pacific Ave with a Hotel then roll an 8 to Boardwalk with another Hotel. I'd rather go to Jail.

Dave Carpentier

Interesting thread. Here, I dont think Ive seen any distribution (7.2 14.4 or 28.8kv) lines without an accompanying neutral. That neutral is regularly connected to ground rods, and the telco strand (and cable shields) is grounded to it. Its all one happy ground/neutral.

Bringing a telco cable into a substation is an interesting situation. In the event of a in-station HV fault, the fault will ground out locally which causes a ground potential rise (GPR). If the telco was grounded/bonded in a conventional fashion, it would suddenly have thousands of volts looking to wisk down the shields. So you dont ground/bond anything telco within the GPR danger zone. Special devices isolate the lines in the event of a fault (it used to be isolation transformers where the fault current would cancel itself out via opposing windings, but thats been replaced by optical isolation interfaces, and even more recently by fibre optics with no metallic parts at all)

archibald tuttle

@ChrisJ you seem to have a monopoly here on the wall.

JUGHNE

Well, we do have the water works also. No RR left here but we also have the gas works. That is something.
Don't forget sewer and garbage done by the same entity.
We do have a standby diesel power plant but if it comes to hard times there may be rationing as we are one unit short.
Nursing home, water pumps and businesses can have power full time but resi might have to trade off.

Any Wye system as mentioned above, 7.2, 14.4, and 28.8 KV have and require a current carrying neutral.
They are considered distribution systems.

We are still a Delta, no neutral needed.


The 34.5, 69 KV and I do believe on up into the 400,000KV range are Delta circuits.
That is apparently better for power transmission lines.

The very top wires you see on these structures are only "static" lines and may help with lighting strikes.

ChrisJ

archibald tuttle said:

@ChrisJ you seem to have a monopoly here on the wall.

I'm sorry 

Solid_Fuel_Man

Locally we have 69kV as Delta transmission, no neutral. Distribution is 34.5kV where there are mills, and 7200 everywhere else. There used to be 4160, buy that got upgraded to 7200 in the 90s. 

Stray current to a water pipe is quite common. It is due to neighbor's bad connection or voltage drop on your own neutral connection due to typical load. Some balancing may lesson it, but not eliminate it altogether. 

There are still a lot of services around here with a #6 neutral and #2 hots. 

What is the reading with the main breaker off? If it goes to 0, then what is your neutral current when you see 3 amps to the water pipe? 

Bob Vennerbeck

Here in Providence, RI and likely elsewhere, the INTENT is that "Transformers have ground rods driven at the pole for an overhead service" but if you look around, pretty much all of the copper wire down the pole that is reachable by a dude with a hatchet is missing....

Gsmith

Last year at my son's rental house at the NJ Shore, we experienced odd electrical behavior on arrival, some appliances and outlets seemed not to work. I opened the panel and checked voltage on the two hot legs: 80 volts on one, 120 volts on the other. Called the utility company and noted that one of their automated call systems options was Press 5 if your lights are flickering. POCO rep came out in the middle of the night, found a fault in the insulation of part of the buried service cable (in this area groundwater is very close to the surface and the underground feeds are all in mostly salt water all the time).

They fixed the issue by 1st: installing a transformer at the meter location to give us power on both hot legs and then a day or two later by installing an new underground feeder. THey never found the actual bad part of the cable but just abandoned it after installing the new feed.

This service was originally installed in 1982 or so. I found it curious that the issue must be so common that the POCO has an automated call response button specifically for this issue and they had very readily available (not on the truck but within an hour) transformers to provide 220 service in the event of a bad service cable.

I"m thinking this fault had been going on for some time, leaking current into the ground, but failed in a bigger way when the low voltage was noticed, because this house has had numerous pinhole leaks in the hot water copper piping over the past few years which am now thinking was caused by the failing electrical feeder putting voltage on the piping system. Metal water piping was grounded and bonted (around the water heater) at all times.

Jamie Hall

Not surprised they abandoned the old line. Finding and repairing a fault in a buried line is hideously expensive -- one of the reasons utility companies really don't like them.

JUGHNE

I just read a story in The Firefighter Newsletter. This is actually about bonding/grounding electrical systems.

Fire Dept called to a house, they found a 6-8" flame coming out of a leak in the furnace gas supply line.
That was it, just the flame and nothing else burning.

The shut off at the gas meter was not 100% so 2 FF in PPE went into the house to shut off the service stop at the furnace, that stopped the flame.

It seems a tree limb fell on the overhead service and broke the neutral, ( the supporting messenger cable for the two hots).

Either a ground clamp on the CSST or the CSST clamped to the grounded furnace carried enough current to blow a pinhole in the gas line and ignite it.
Shortly after the neutral broke the hots came apart also.

So one of 2 things could have occured:

The neutral was lost with some 120 volt load looking for a ground path thru the gas line.

Or the when neutral snapped and then one of the hots shorted outside overhead to the customer's neutral.

Either or both could have happened within seconds.

No one was injured, the only property damage was to the CSST.

There may have been a ground clamp on the CSST and maybe nowhere else. IDK
CSST needs bonded to a system that has other grounding electrodes, in this case the electrical service installation may have been lacking those features and the pipefitter did what he thought best.

This would be a good case study, as the building is still intact.

With no injury or property damage the State Fire Marshall would probably not investigated.

I know of 2 cases where lighting produced the pinhole with the gas flame on the top of the CSST.

PC7060

Jamie Hall said:

@JUGHNE -- do you have any idea how lucky you are to be a local electric utility?

Key is people like @JUGHNE who are training the next generation to pass along the baton!

Stuart, NE seems to be pretty unique in its forward thinking and planning. So many other small town in rural US have faded away without it. 

PC7060

JUGHNE said:

I know of 2 cases where lighting produced the pinhole with the gas flame on the top of the CSST.

Bonding the CSST was another hit or miss especially during the 90’s when it began taking over the market for new installs.  Municipality’s only started getting serous about bonding the CSST after lighting strike induced pinholes start being documented. 

JUGHNE

PC, thank you for that!

There are plenty here of the next generation interested in promoting the town,
however none interested much in boilers especially steam.

I feel amiss that I did not grab some young person and drag them around to the boilers.
But that means having an employee and all the baggage that goes with it.

A couple of self employed plumber/HVAC guys are just too busy with those trades.

They send any boiler work my way....unless it is a state of the art new install.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@JUGHNE

That's why I don't like CSST. Gas is hazardous. CSST just isn't rugged enough or damage resistant enough in my opinion.

It's burned up a few buildings grounded or not.

PC7060

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@JUGHNE That's why I don't like CSST. Gas is hazardous. CSST just isn't rugged enough or damage resistant enough in my opinion. It's burned up a few buildings grounded or not.

Agree, that’s why I used black pipe for all of the gas work on my recent 1928 house restoration/refurbishment including the new section.  Mostly thread connections but did cheat and use megapress in a few key locations. 

ChrisJ

PC7060 said:

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@JUGHNE That's why I don't like CSST. Gas is hazardous. CSST just isn't rugged enough or damage resistant enough in my opinion. It's burned up a few buildings grounded or not.

Agree, that’s why I used black pipe for all of the gas work on my recent 1928 house restoration/refurbishment including the new section.  Mostly thread connections but did cheat and use megapress in a few key locations. 

That plug wouldn't fly with a lot of inspectors here.

PC7060

Glad i didn’t have to deal with your inspectors.  Fortunately mine tended to stick to the letter of the code.  

A friend recently failed a final inspection on a new home (occupancy permit).  Reason: No screens install on windows. 

JUGHNE

So would a short nipple and cap make them happy?

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

So would a short nipple and cap make them happy?

Yes

No idea why.
In my house I consider a plug to be just fine but everything I've done is a nipple and a cap to keep the peace.

PC7060

ChrisJ said:

JUGHNE said:

So would a short nipple and cap make them happy?

Yes

No idea why.
In my house I consider a plug to be just fine but everything I've done is a nipple and a cap to keep the peace.

That connection is for a gas oven so dirt leg wasn’t required. I put the tee in just the case the inspector wanted one. 

mattmia2

Just because it isn't required doesn't mean it isn't a good idea.

mattmia2

JUGHNE said:

IIRC, doubling voltage will produce 4 times the energy available, also less current draw on conductors for the same load will induce less line loss......the main purpose of this upgrade.

Unless i'm missing something, doubling th evoltage doubles the pwoer.

IV = P
so
I2V = 2P

Power changes exponentially with a change in resistance because the voltage or current term is squared when calculating power from voltage or current and resistance.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

Just because it isn't required doesn't mean it isn't a good idea.

I think drip legs also need to make sense in how they're piped.

If you have a horizontal pipe and you put a vertical drip leg in the middle, I don't think it tends to be useful. The same would go for a line going upward. I believe it needs that change of direction in order to really work. Meaning, down and then a turn, causing debris etc to fall into the leg.

I could be wrong, but that's how I've always viewed them.

I'd be curious on opinions on this actually.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

JUGHNE said:

IIRC, doubling voltage will produce 4 times the energy available, also less current draw on conductors for the same load will induce less line loss......the main purpose of this upgrade.

Unless i'm missing something, doubling th evoltage doubles the pwoer.

IV = P
so
I2V = 2P

Power changes exponentially with a change in resistance because the voltage or current term is squared when calculating power from voltage or current and resistance.

Doubling the voltage does a lot more than double power into the same resistance. This is why bridging an amplifier is a big deal and a lot needs to be considered.

For example.

10 volts into 8 ohms gives 12.5 watts.
20 volts into 8 ohms gives 50 watts.
40 volts into 8 ohms gives 200 watts.

Of course, no speaker is really 8 ohms in real world use, and there's a whole lot going on but that's the basic idea.

mattmia2

ChrisJ said:

mattmia2 said:

JUGHNE said:

IIRC, doubling voltage will produce 4 times the energy available, also less current draw on conductors for the same load will induce less line loss......the main purpose of this upgrade.

Unless i'm missing something, doubling th evoltage doubles the pwoer.

IV = P
so
I2V = 2P

Power changes exponentially with a change in resistance because the voltage or current term is squared when calculating power from voltage or current and resistance.

Doubling the voltage does a lot more than double power into the same resistance. This is why bridging an amplifier is a big deal and a lot needs to be considered.

For example.

10 volts into 8 ohms gives 12.5 watts.
20 volts into 8 ohms gives 50 watts.
40 volts into 8 ohms gives 200 watts.

mattmia2 said:

Power changes exponentially with a change in resistance because the voltage or current term is squared when calculating power from voltage or current and resistance.

At double the voltage the distribution system will only be able to handle double the power. Resistive or reactive loads may draw exponentially more power, but the distribution system won't be able to provide it.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

ChrisJ said:

mattmia2 said:

JUGHNE said:

IIRC, doubling voltage will produce 4 times the energy available, also less current draw on conductors for the same load will induce less line loss......the main purpose of this upgrade.

Unless i'm missing something, doubling th evoltage doubles the pwoer.

IV = P
so
I2V = 2P

Power changes exponentially with a change in resistance because the voltage or current term is squared when calculating power from voltage or current and resistance.

Doubling the voltage does a lot more than double power into the same resistance. This is why bridging an amplifier is a big deal and a lot needs to be considered.

For example.

10 volts into 8 ohms gives 12.5 watts.
20 volts into 8 ohms gives 50 watts.
40 volts into 8 ohms gives 200 watts.

mattmia2 said:

Power changes exponentially with a change in resistance because the voltage or current term is squared when calculating power from voltage or current and resistance.

At double the voltage the distribution system will only be able to handle double the power. Resistive or reactive loads may draw exponentially more power, but the distribution system won't be able to provide it.

Get rid of the fuses and breakers and it'll handle it just fine in the winter.

ratio

Y'all can use my electricity if we run short.

Jamie Hall

Don't confuse power available -- equal to voltage times current (W = EI) and transmission losses, which are current squared times resistance or voltage squared divided by resistance. So for a given transmission line, if you double the voltage at the terminals, you will cut the current in half, which cuts the voltage DROP in the line by half, and the loss to one fourth.

Fora given transmission line. Some very odd things happen at very high to extra high voltage transmission lines; while at voltages we normally play games with the resistance is proportional to the cross section area of the conductor, at those voltages for AC the resistance is more or less proportional to the circumference of a wire bundle -- which is why on newer EHV lines you will three or four conductors for each phase, bundled closely (less than a foot or so) together. Very odd. Your trivia for the day.

On the smart thermostat effect -- distributing the switch on time at random over a small interval -- less than the cycle length of the equipment -- will have little effect on power draw, except that it will ramp up slowly instead of a sharp spike.

EdTheHeaterMan

ratio said:

Y'all can use my electricity if we run short.

Now don't start that discussion about Shorts again, We already got @109A_5 to leave and that was not cool!

I hope he comes back soon!

ratio

@Jamie Hall, are you taking about skin effect, or something else?

Larry Weingarten

Hi, I found this..."The power by definition* is the product of the current and the voltage across a one-port (a two-terminal device). The power is only proportional to the square of the voltage if the I (V) relationship is linear.: from here: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/543610/is-power-proportional-to-v-or-v2#:~:text=The power by definition* is the product of,relationship is linear. If it is constant, i.e.
My own experience is that it does take about four times as long to heat water at 120 vac than it does at 240 vac, all equipment being the same.

Yours, Larry

Jamie Hall

ratio said:

@Jamie Hall, are you taking about skin effect, or something else?

skin effect, yes

Larry Weingarten said:

Hi, I found this..."The power by definition* is the product of the current and the voltage across a one-port (a two-terminal device). The power is only proportional to the square of the voltage if the I (V) relationship is linear.: from here: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/543610/is-power-proportional-to-v-or-v2#:~:text=The power by definition* is the product of,relationship is linear. If it is constant, i.e.
My own experience is that it does take about four times as long to heat water at 120 vac than it does at 240 vac, all equipment being the same.

Yours, Larry

Correct, and no surprise. Your electric heating elements in the water heater have a given resistance. Somewhere right around 12 ohms hot, typically. So, on 240 volts, they will draw 20 amps, more or less, which will give your around 4800 watts. Now, if you drop the voltage to 120, what happens? The resistance stays the same, therefore the current will drop to 10 amps. Now your power is 10 amps times 120 volts -- 1200 watts instead of 4800. So... your water takes about 4 times longer to heat.

Solid_Fuel_Man

CSST is in my (sometimes not so humble) opinion just a really long appliance connector. And I don't like appliance connectors. 

Thankfully here in rural America we only have oil and propane. Both of which can be run in black iron, and soft copper. I'm the guy who makes a coil of soft copper behind the range and gently pushes it in. Never an issue. In fact, the only connection is at the appliance, and at the gas valve which I like to put back at the manifold or at the black iron T where you don't need to pull the appliance out to get to it. Never had an inspector tell me I couldn't do it that way. As few connections and all copper.