Condensation in my boiler....this normal?

hot_rod

DanHolohan said:

Gil told me the primary loop is the one that contains the compression tank. All other loops are secondary, or in some cases, tertiary. I hope that helps. 

Can you channel him and ask why?

jumper

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I see your point Bob. I got the pumps backwards. That pump curve explanation is great for understanding the point of the benefit of a flat curve.

TACO 007 v. B&G 100

Yes a flat curve is beneficial. And a pump that is not over sized. Some smart guys here say that it doesn't matter so much with modern smart pumps.

There are also legitimate applications for circulators with steep curves.

Ironman

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HomerJSmith

Dan, with due respect, that doesn't explain why the Xtank is the primary circuit. I can see that PONPC, as a very, very important reality, that it could be the very reason as, the definition of the adjective,"primary", is "first or highest in rank or importance; " However, in every system, every component of that sys has an equal importance as a failure of one component leads to a failure of the sys.

In a hydronic sys, the goal is to put heat energy into an environment. That's not possible with out a heat source (boiler), therefore I go with the noun rather than the adjective definition of "primary", "something that is first in order, rank, or importance". The boiler is first in line in providing that heat energy. The boiler is central to the whole sys. It takes the most planning and is the highest cost item in the sys. That makes it primary.

However, being a weak natured person, I will go with the consensus.

DanHolohan

Just sharing what he told me, Homer. I wish he was still around to join the chat. 

HomerJSmith

We often do thing without thinking because that's the way it has always been done.

Reminds me of the housewife, when cooking a ham, would always cut the ends off of the ham. When asked by her husband why she always did that she said, "that the way my mother always did it."

One day when she was with her mother, she ask her why she cut the ends off the ham. Her mother replied, "the pan was too short."

Hmmm

DanHolohan

Not sure if that's a good analogy in this case, Homer. After all, Gil is the guy who thought it up in the first place, and he did a great job of explaining why what he was saying was true. The primary loop has the tank. The secondary loops treat their individual common piping as their point-of-no-pressure-change "tank." I wish you could have heard him in person. He was very convincing, but also quite open to those who disagreed with him, as am I. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

hot_rod

HomerJSmith said:

Dan, with due respect, that doesn't explain why the Xtank is the primary circuit. I can see that PONPC, as a very, very important reality, that it could be the very reason as, the definition of the adjective,"primary", is "first or highest in rank or importance; " However, in every system, every component of that sys has an equal importance as a failure of one component leads to a failure of the sys.

In a hydronic sys, the goal is to put heat energy into an environment. That's not possible with out a heat source (boiler), therefore I go with the noun rather than the adjective definition of "primary", "something that is first in order, rank, or importance". The boiler is first in line in providing that heat energy. The boiler is central to the whole sys. It takes the most planning and is the highest cost item in the sys. That makes it primary.

However, being a weak natured person, I will go with the consensus.

Here is a lifeline for you. The boiler can be called the primary loop, even though the expansion tank could be at any of the 4 connections, input or distribution side of the separator.

HomerJSmith

Thanks, Dan. Thanks hot_rod, I am aware of that. The last hydrosep that I installed several months ago, I followed the second illustration, mounted on the return to the hydrosep.

Look, Dan & hot_rod have forgotten more than I'll ever know about hydronic and in which I am very grateful for their constant contribution to my knowledge.

I'm anxiously awaiting what the tech guy says to Flo on Wednesday.

HVACNUT

I'd like to know how its wired. Typically with zone valves, an end switch will close the burner circuit. 

The boiler circulator is an IFC, while the system circulator is not. Zone valve(s) open, end switch makes, and the burners fire.

I'm a little ignorant on piping, but won't there be a gravity heat rise since there's no check valve on the system side? While the boiler is trying to get above the dew point of the flue gasses, the heated water is leaving the boiler. 

I usually see the boiler circulator on the return with P/S piping. The way this is piped, isn't the boiler circulator pumping directly into the system circulator? Do you still get the  seperation at the Tee's?

FloMo201

Hello Everyone! Wow....I guess I've given everyone something interesting to think about and discuss !

For giggles....I put the heat on in my home office a few minutes ago and took some notes for you all. The boiler was at 118 degrees and there was a little condensation in the draft hood at 125 when both pumps turned on. Again, there was no drop in temp on the display panel and by 135 the condensation was drying up. By 180, all of it was dried up and nothing dripped out the hood. Outside temp is about 55, and humidity in the basement was 42%. So it is interesting to me that from 80 degrees it generates enough moisture to drip out of the hood but from 118 it didn't. Just makes me think that it not going up the chimney fast enough.....thoughts? You all have me thinking about this too! Love it!

While this was going on I was touching the piping to see what is hot and what is cold. There is definitely mixing happening with this set up. The piping after the zone valves but before the pipe heading downward back to the boiler was cold. The pipe going back into the boiler was always rather warm and got hot to the touch pretty fast. The pipe leaving the green pump was HOT and the pipe leaving the black pump was HOT.....this was at 127-ish degrees..so pumps on. The pipe coming back into the boiler was also HOT even though the pipe just a little further back coming from the zone valves was actually cold.....so, there has to be some magic happening in that section of pipe behind the boiler.

More to come. Happy Sunday everyone!

Regards, Flo

FloMo201

Oh! I forgot to mention, i did test the droplets for PH. The test strip resulted in a yellow color that read approx 5-6 PH. I guess its a little acidic but not that bad???

Flo

hot_rod

FloMo201 said:

Hello Everyone! Wow....I guess I've given everyone something interesting to think about and discuss !

For giggles....I put the heat on in my home office a few minutes ago and took some notes for you all. The boiler was at 118 degrees and there was a little condensation in the draft hood at 125 when both pumps turned on. Again, there was no drop in temp on the display panel and by 135 the condensation was drying up. By 180, all of it was dried up and nothing dripped out the hood. Outside temp is about 55, and humidity in the basement was 42%. So it is interesting to me that from 80 degrees it generates enough moisture to drip out of the hood but from 118 it didn't. Just makes me think that it not going up the chimney fast enough.....thoughts? You all have me thinking about this too! Love it!

While this was going on I was touching the piping to see what is hot and what is cold. There is definitely mixing happening with this set up. The piping after the zone valves but before the pipe heading downward back to the boiler was cold. The pipe going back into the boiler was always rather warm and got hot to the touch pretty fast. The pipe leaving the green pump was HOT and the pipe leaving the black pump was HOT.....this was at 127-ish degrees..so pumps on. The pipe coming back into the boiler was also HOT even though the pipe just a little further back coming from the zone valves was actually cold.....so, there has to be some magic happening in that section of pipe behind the boiler.

More to come. Happy Sunday everyone!

Regards, Flo

I don't know how technical you want to get? Here is what can happen in the piping arrangement you have.

Depending on the flow rates through the boiler loop, and the distribution loop there will be temperature blending.

Only IF the boiler loop and distribution loop were at the exact same flow rate you would see boiler SWT to the heaters.

Someone suggested your piping may be backwards at the tees also, reverse injection. You still get temperature blending, just at a different point in that piping of the close tees. I can't quite follow the piping in your pics.

Your system can and obviously does work okay, personally I think it is "over-piped". You may be fine the way it is, or some temperature control adjustments to get that warm up phase faster.

A point and shoot thermometer gun would be nice to pin down accurate temperatures.

There is no exact industry number I know of for boiler warm up time frame, short cycling, etc. Only rule of thumbs
It's the eye of the beholder

FloMo201

Today is going to be a nice sunny day in the valley. I can take some more notes on the time intervals it takes the boiler to go from a cold start to 180. I do have an IR thermometer that we have been using to take people's temps during covid. I assume I can use that and take reading of the pipes? Is there anything I need to consider to get an accurate reading on a round piece of pipe??

Thanks, Flo

jhewings

The shiny pipe can cause inaccurate temperature readings. It is a good idea to wrap the pipe with black tape where you take readings.

FloMo201

Hi Everyone,

Well I met up with my installer and he did 2 things. He disconnected the flue and used a camera to take a look inside the flue. His camera didn't have a long probe and what he could see, he said looked okay. That said he did encourage me to have the entire run of b-vent inspected to ensure it is free from any sort of obstruction and that there is no deterioration of the b-vent. He is going to help me find someone to perform that inspection.

He also did a combustion analysis and told me that everything seems okay but he did tell he made some adjustments so he is hopeful that will help as well. At this point, he and I left it as a waiting game to the next warm day when the boiler will start from cold. Hopefully whatever adjustment he made helps to dry it out faster.....his words, not mine.

I did ask him about the piping. He tells me green is primary and black is secondary. I was unable to take any temperature measurements as suggested here, and yesterday the heat was on and running all day...so whatever temperatures he took all were above 165 degrees returning to the boiler, so to him everything was working as desired.

I will keep you all posted. If anyone has any additional feedback for me, please post!

Thank you, Flo