Steam Boiler, Rust Around Low Water Probe

BirchLeaf

Where the low water probe enters into the gas steam boiler, there is rust/corrosion around it and below it. Is there a way to remove and replace it? (Liquid Wrench?) The boiler has never leaked, even in the summer when it's full of water.
(I don't have a photo; I wish that I did.)

Hap_Hazzard

Have you tried unscrewing it? It's made of brass, so it shouldn't be too hard. The only thing that might make it difficult would be if there's a thread sealant on the threads, and if that's the case, penetrating oil won't help because it can't penetrate the sealant.

If the probe is working, you should wait until heating season is over before you mess with it, and you probably won't need to replace it. You can just clean it of and put it back. Don't use PTFE tape on the threads, but if you use a sealant with PTFE it should make it easier to remove it the next time. Oatey Great White is what I use.

BirchLeaf

@Hap_Hazzard
There's so much thick rust/corrosion around it, that it's hard to see it. There are two wires sticking out of it that aren't connected to anything. The low water shut off is lit, preventing the boiler from coming on. (There's plenty of water in the boiler.)

neilc

BirchLeaf said:

@Hap_Hazzard
There's so much thick rust/corrosion around it, that it's hard to see it.

well you know we want to see pictures of that,

BirchLeaf said:

@Hap_Hazzard
There are two wires sticking out of it that aren't connected to anything. The low water shut off is lit, preventing the boiler from coming on

and that's a picture we don't want!
Your safety is disconnected ? this is serious.
or are those "fill" wires to an auto fill?

BirchLeaf said:

@Hap_Hazzard
preventing the boiler from coming on. (There's plenty of water in the boiler.)

you sure about the water level?

if boiler is off,
sounds like probe may need cleaning now,
maybe heavy corrosion has isolated probe ground (like tape would)

pictures

Steamhead

What model is your low-water cutoff?

BirchLeaf

@Steamhead Safgard, aqua color.
Please let me know if this steam boiler could have been fixed. Never leaked, even in summer when full of water.

Steamhead

I'd remove the probe first. My guess it wasn't tightened properly and that's why it leaked.

Hydrolevel makes several probes for different types of boilers. What boiler do you have?

BirchLeaf

@neilc (1) I didn't take pics. (I'll try to draw it and post). (2) Boiler did not have auto-fill. (3) Yes, plenty of water. Boiler was drained, flushed, cleaned at the end of December. (4) Boiler would not come on because low water cutoff was misreading water level.

BirchLeaf

@Steamhead Heating guy wouldn't remove it because of all the rust and said afraid would crack boiler. Said I needed new steam boiler. 

SteamingatMohawk

What model Safgard? Do you have any information on it?

Summarizing, lots of rust and corrosion around the probe, no auto feeder, wires not connected, LWCO activated so the boiler won't run.

How long has this situation existed?

We really need pics of the device, probe and wiring.

pecmsg

BirchLeaf said:

@Steamhead Heating guy wouldn't remove it because of all the rust and said afraid would crack boiler. Said I needed new steam boiler. 

If it cracks the boiler that unit is already gone. 

BirchLeaf

@pecmsg It didn't dawn on me to tell him to try. There would have been nothing to lose. 

BirchLeaf

@SteamingatMohawk I know. I was going to get pics, but my phone died. (It was like a nightmare.) I'll post drawing soon.

JUGHNE

Do you know anyone who could take pictures of everything around your boiler?
Floor to ceiling showing all pipes from all sides.
They are easy to post here from a camera phone.

BirchLeaf

@JUGHNE The boiler is gone. Heating guy said couldn't replace low water probe, that I needed a new boiler.

BirchLeaf

@SteamingatMohawk, @neilc Drawing of steam boiler (Dunkirk Radiator Corp). This is what I saw when he took off the front door.

pecmsg

BirchLeaf said:

@JUGHNE The boiler is gone. Heating guy said couldn't replace low water probe, that I needed a new boiler.

I would get a second opinion!

screw on fittings can be removed! Sometimes not easy but it can be done. 

I’ve pulled 2 and 3” plugs that took a lot of pounding to break free and haven’t broken the boiler!

Steamhead

BirchLeaf said:

@JUGHNE The boiler is gone. Heating guy said couldn't replace low water probe, that I needed a new boiler.

Gone, as in, left the building?

BirchLeaf

@pecmsg I wish I had gotten a second opinion. I believed him (yet something seemed off). It was during frigid weather (beginning of Feb.)

BirchLeaf

@Steamhead Yes, the heating guy removed it and installed a new (grossly over-sized) steam boiler.

mattmia2

unless the boiler was rotted out the probe could be removed and replaced by someone that knows what they are doing. Could also probably install a new one at another location.

pecmsg

BirchLeaf said:

@Steamhead Yes, the heating guy removed it and installed a new (grossly over-sized) steam boiler.

Based on what you’ve said, Sorry to say You got screwed!

JUGHNE

The horses have left the barn....so we have to work with what it there now.

The pictures of the new install would help.

SteamingatMohawk

OK, so let's start back at the beginning with reality. You have a new boiler. What are your issues?

Hap_Hazzard

BirchLeaf said:

@SteamingatMohawk, @neilc Drawing of steam boiler (Dunkirk Radiator Corp). This is what I saw when he took off the front door.

Based on location, that looks more like a rollout switch than a low water probe. The low water probe is inside the Safgard. I really need to see a photo. Where are you located?

JUGHNE

IIRC, those side outlet boilers had the remote probe in the front upper right hand part of the boiler. As shown on the drawing.

Not real easy to unscrew, one reason they are probably neglected.

BirchLeaf

SteamingatMohawk said:

OK, so let's start back at the beginning with reality. You have a new boiler. What are your issues?

The steam boiler he installed is grossly over-sized.

JUGHNE

We need to see what he installed.....pictures as requested above.
You must have someone around who can put them here.

And what problems are you having with the new boiler?

Without seeing what it looks like we can not help much at all.

BirchLeaf

@JUGHNE The boiler is grossly over-sized for my home. The house is like an oven; the radiators are dangerously hot (150 F). I'm sending a letter to him to try to work something out (i.e., remove it and refund some of my money). If he doesn't respond, I'll have to file a complaint with the BBB. (FYI - He's an A+ BBB accredited company, which I know means absolutely nothing.)

JUGHNE

Most steam systems can turn a house into an oven if not controlled correctly.
Did you get a new thermostat with this?
If you turn it down does the unit stop heating?

Radiators can and should get to 200 degrees, the steam inside is at least 212 degrees.

Do you have a pressure gauge? What do you see when the boiler has been running for maybe 15 minutes?

BirchLeaf

@JUGHNE This new boiler, 321 sf of steam. EDR of home, 204 sf. They did not measure the radiators. (1) No, did not get new thermostat. (2) Yes, when I turn thermostat down, the unit stops heating. (3) (I grew up with steam radiators.) Bought this house 30 years ago. Surface temps of the radiators have never been like this. If a toddler leaned into one of these radiators, they'd be seriously burned. (4) I don't understand the last paragraph about pressure gauge.

KC_Jones

The oversizing has absolutely nothing to do with the radiator temperature.  Steam is ~212 degrees, only variation is due to pressure, more pressure, higher temperature.  In the case of residential steam you are talking a degree or two of variation, maybe.

If that system was always steam, those radiators always got that hot, it’s a fact because the steam is still the same temperature.

If you want to go after the contractor for the sizing then do that, but trying to say the radiators are hotter is not helping your cause.

BirchLeaf

@KC_Jones Ok, then I won't bring up the hotter radiators. (They never got that hot; maybe if 0 degrees out.) Heating guy lowered pressure from 3.5 to 2. Still too hot; if I slow the radiator air vent, water drips from radiator valve. He said he'd remove one tube/burner and then he's done, he's not dealing with it anymore. (I haven't called them much.) Do you have any suggestions on what I should do?

KC_Jones

If the only thing they are saying is remove a burner tube and then they are done, it sounds like you are stuck to be honest.

I can’t believe a “professional” is recommending that. It will most likely void the warranty and I’m certain the manufacturer doesn’t approve.

Unless you want to go the legal route, it sounds like you are dealing with a contractor that doesn’t know what they are doing, and isn’t willing to learn, therefore they won’t acknowledge any wrong doing.

As mentioned before if it’s installed incorrectly that would give you more ground to complain on, but since you won’t post pictures for us to assess the install we can’t help with that aspect at all.

ChrisJ

I think the OP is misinterpreting what is going on.

The heated areas of the radiators always got that hot but it sounds like they were so much slower that only a few sections normally got steam and then the heat spread to the rest so overall they seemed much cooler.

On normal days many of mine only technically heat 3-4 sections out of many but the entire radiator feels warm

But yeah I wouldn't mention that.

BirchLeaf

@KC_Jones He assured me it would not void warranty (I knew he was lying). When I told him sq. ft. of my home, he looked up estimate of boiler size on his phone (I also mentioned warranty void if not properly sized), he jumped up from his chair and said, "I'm done with this. I'll have my lawyer call you," and abrubtly left.

I don't want to deal with lawyers. What about filing a complaint with BBB? Do you think that would be a good idea?

I'll post pics soon.

BirchLeaf

@ChrisJ Yes! That's exactly right. Thank you!

ethicalpaul

You can’t size a boiler using the sq ft of the home, app or no

Hap_Hazzard

Is this a SteamMax STMX125? That's the only 321 ft² boiler I know of. If it is, it can't be downfired by removing a burner tube. The 125 has the same number of sections as the 150, so it could be upfired, but the next smallest SteamMax has one less section. Just removing a burner tube without modifying the burner tray can reduce the efficiency and life of the boiler.

BirchLeaf

@Hap_Hazzard It's Williamson GSA-125 steam boiler. (I wrote 321 by mistake. It's 325 sq. ft.)

ChrisJ

BirchLeaf said:

@Hap_Hazzard It's Williamson GSA-125 steam boiler. (I wrote 321 by mistake. It's 325 sq. ft.)

If I'm remembering correctly, that's the same as a WM EG-40.
That's what I have now, but I started with an EG-45 which is the same boiler but with an extra burner tube and a different drafthood.

The bad news is, you can't go smaller, you need to drop down to the next smaller size boiler.

Personally, I wouldn't want them removing a burner tube. I'm curious to see pictures of how they piped the boiler. Right now, expectations are very low.