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Weil McClain EG 65 Steam boiler

SMITTY64
SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
I had a new Weil-Mclain EG 65 steam boiler installed and I am still dealing with banging pipes. My system is a 2 pipe vented System without traps. When they installed the system I believe they may have added piping that is not necessary thereby creating my issues.Where the steam goes up to all of the radiators they added a wet return which I believe should not be there as there are wet returns that go back to the system on every radiator Please see attached pics. Any help or insight is appreciated. 
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Comments

  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,485
    The near boiler piping doesn't smell very good. Call the original installer back and have him repipe. Follow the instructions. Send him a letter from a lawyer if he won't comply. 
    ethicalpaul
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    Can you please elaborate on what piping you are referring to? Am I correct in regards to my findings?
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,941
    There is some rather creative piping going on with what I take to be returns. You mention that this is a two pipe air vent system? They are a little unusual -- and they do not usually have individual returns to a wet return for each radiator (for that matter, that would be a very unusual arrangement). Can you clarify a bit on how each radiator and the mains are piped? Both a diagram, but also pictures of a couple of typical radiators (overall and both ends), any vents on the system other than those on the radiators, and a couple of typical runs from the return ends of the radiators down to the wet return you mention?

    As has been mentioned, the near boiler piping is a bit creative, but I'm not sure that that is causing the hammering. The overall siting of the boiler, however, may be: what is the operating water level in the new boiler as compared with the one it replaced (which, I presume, was running without hammering)?
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 12,002
    @SMITTY64

    The installer did not follow the MFG piping drawing . It's in the boiler manual. If you don't have one go on line to Weil McLain and download it.

    The header is wrong and they did not install a Hartford loop.

    While the header could be the issue the lack of a Hartford loop could cause water to be pushed back up into the returns when the boiler is steaming.

    I see no problem with that.

    What pressure is the steam running at?

    Did the skim/clean the water side of the boiler?
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    The system is indeed a vented 2 pipe system without traps. I have attached pictures of the radiators, and the wet returns to the main hartford loop. There are also 2 wet returns not going to the hartford loop but feeding back to the boiler. The last pic with the smaller diameter insulation is a wet return
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    I forgot to mention that the pressure on the pressuretrol is set at 2 & 1/2 psi
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    I do not generally get a reading unless the thermostat is set high. I had the pigtail checked and it is not clogged.
    ostneb
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    A reading on the pressure gauge.
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    They have not skim cleaned the water side of the boiler. The banging is coming from the 3 furthest radiators toward the back of the house. I have 11 radiators in total.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,941
    Two questions -- is there an equalizer going from the header for the boiler back to the top of the Hartford Loop? And how are the returns from those 3 banging boilers returned to the boiler? What elevation? Are they part of that amazaing array of returns?

    The two returns which enter the boiler after the Hartford Loop should be rerouted to a common wet return with all the others, then the Hartford loop with its equalizer, then right into the boiler.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 12,002
    I am still not seeing a hartford loop but maybe it's hidden.

    Questions:

    Are the radiators that bang connected to the wet return that is NOT part of the Hartford loop?

    Are the radiators that bang have vents on them or are they vented back near the boiler as I see a few vents there?

    The second to the last picture you posted of the "newer" radiator, that rad has no vent. Is that one of the bangers?

    And is that rad have a vent in the return back by the boiler?

    Is that rad connected to the boiler without going through the hartford loop?
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    The second to last picture does have a vent it's just black in color. The Hartford Loop is the large array of piping that I have pictured. The radiators that are not part of the Hartford Loop do not Bang. I have attached a picture of the Hartford Loop below.
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    I am more curious if the piping that comes out from below the header needs to be there? Being that this is the pipe that sends the steam to all the radiators I am not sure why they put this in. It doesn't make sense to me to have a return under the main header that is sending steam to the radiators. See pic attached. 
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 12,002
    Yes. That is the equalizer pipe and it needs to be there even though they piped the header wrong. Download the manual so you can show the installer the manual with the correct piping
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,739
    Yeah I'm not a fan of the use of the word "creative" in terms of this piping. The near boiler piping is dead wrong.
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    Would this incorrect piping be causing the banging pipe issues?
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,739
    It could. The lack of header and wrong piping is not helping to separate the steam from the boiling water like a correct header piping would. So it's possible that your boiler is heaving gallons of water into the mains and water being where it shouldn't be is the cause of hammer.
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    Can you please elaborate on the lack of header and wrong piping? I would really like this information for when I call the installer back. Thank you very much in advance.
    ethicalpaul
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    How did they pipe the header wrong? Thanks in advance.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,739
    Here is the diagram from the manual (which comes for free in printed form with the boiler). Page 17.

    Compare to yours and if you have difficulty seeing the differences (they can be difficult to discern if you're not used to looking at boilers), then we can elaborate.

    They were OK using just one steam supply pipe out of the boiler instead of two as long as it is 3" pipe.




    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    Thank you. The contractor is going to come back out although he told me blow doen and skimming are the same thing. I do not believe this is correct. 
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,485
    Here is the diagram from the manual (which comes for free in printed form with the boiler). Page 17. Compare to yours and if you have difficulty seeing the differences (they can be difficult to discern if you're not used to looking at boilers), then we can elaborate. They were OK using just one steam supply pipe out of the boiler instead of two as long as it is 3" pipe.
    Off topic. The Egh95 has greater steam output then the Eg75. Why are the requirements creater for the Eg75? Single 3" has greater area then two 2" (I think).
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,941
    Quite right. A blowdown and a skim are two entirely different things. Doesn't inspire confidence.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    STEAM DOCTORethicalpaulGGross
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,739
    Off topic. The Egh95 has greater steam output then the Eg75. Why are the requirements creater for the Eg75? Single 3" has greater area then two 2" (I think).


    One 3" pipe: 3.14 * (3/2)^2 = 7.07
    Two 2" pipes: (3.14 * (2/2)^2) * 2 = 6.28

    So I think you are right @STEAM DOCTOR

    But maybe the design of the EGH series benefits more from twin supplies than the design of the EG does.
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,763
    Assuming the larger boiler is wider [more section(s)], a riser on each end may be needed to avoid an uneven water line....sloping water line which would be higher at the single riser end.
    ethicalpaul
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    I have an update. The installer came back and installed a hartford loop. Something they should have done in the first place. On boiler fire up I am still having some banging for about 30 seconds in the 2 pipes in the back of the house. Nowhere near as bad but still annoying. I called the installer and asked about the skim clean and he told me just keep blowing down and eventually is will stop. There is a 1" square head on the skim clean port and at this point I am ready to buy an adaptor and do the skim clean myself. The adaptor is countersunk slightly behind the jacket. Is there a special socket I can use to remove this?  I believe there are still oils that are causing this. Or should I just wait and do small blowdowns which is about a quart until it runs clear? I have also included a picture of the hartford loop they installed. 
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,081
    It’s still piped wrong, the Hartford loop wasn’t the only thing and honestly that was a minor error.  The header is a much bigger problem.

    Everything after the first elbow over the boiler is wrong.

    Yes the incorrect piping could be contributing to banging if it’s sucking enough water from the boiler.  Also, the lack of skimming will exacerbate the problem.

    It’s amazing to me a “professional” can’t follow a simple diagram, or they are choosing to ignore it.  Either way it’s still wrong.

    As far as the keep draining it comment, that’s wrong too, it needs skimmed.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    ethicalpaul
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    KC, I have decided to post all the pics from Every angle. 
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25

  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25

  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25

  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25

  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    Did they pipe it on the wrong side? I am at wits end and wished you lived in illinois.
  • SMITTY64
    SMITTY64 Member Posts: 25
    Can someone also tell me how to remove the square 1" bolt that is slightly countersunk on the side so I can perform the skim myself? The steam boiler was installed in October 2022. Is their a special type of wrench so I do not have to remove the jacket? Thanks in advance. Andy
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,763
    First, the skim port must be in the side above the water line, can you show us a picture.
    The book may have it labeled as "skim port" or "blow off", not to be confused with "blow down".

    An eight point socket and impact driver usually will remove pipe plugs.
    It must be a tight fit or it may break the corners off of the plug.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,081
    The pictures from the manual of the correct piping for that boiler were posted above.

    You have the vertical riser from the boiler, then an elbow, after that is where it starts going wrong.  Look at your boiler and the manual and you should see the difference.  There isn’t much room for interpretation here.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    ScottSecor
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,763
    That picture you sent me is the "skim port" as stated in the book which is easily available online.

    It is 1 1/2" pipe size.

    The correct socket and a 1/2" breaker bar or 1/2" impact driver should remove it.
    I would first spray the threads of the plug with PB Blaster or such.
    Maybe several sprays over a couple days.

    Then add a 5-6" long nipple, 90 elbow, and short drop pipe with a cap.
    An option is to add a ball valve, but not necessary.
    You want to direct the dribble of water down into a bucket on the floor.

    What you can do is fire the boiler up to a good steaming condition.
    Then shut off the power.
    After the pressure in the boiler drops, you can lift the pressure relief valve to check for no pressure inside.

    Then open your skim port and SLOWLY add water with the "Nibco" ball valve.
    You can see the water rise in the sight glass.
    Continue adding water until a small pencil size stream runs out of the skim port.
    The smaller steady stream the better.
    Run the water until the boiler cools off....hours or so???
    Switch buckets as needed, don't stop the flow.

    You are floating the oils and grease off the top of the water by slowing skimming
    the top water.

    Draining the boiler down will not remove this oil as it clings to the sides of the inside of the boiler.

    When the water runs cold, stop adding.
    Lower the water level down to the center of the sight glass using the lower boiler drain.
    Then you must fire the boiler up again to boiling to remove oxygen from the raw water added. This is important for the longevity of the cast iron boiler.


    Then there looks like 2 return pipes on the rear left side of the boiler.
    One is galvanized pipe with 29 x 1 1/4 marking, the other is 3/4" black.
    They are connected together above the water line.

    The reason all your returns run back to that lower wet return is to keep the steam from one pipe passing back up into another pipe.

    That lower wet piping is full of water and traps the steam from crossing over to another return....and eventually another radiator.

    Are either of these "short drop" pipes connected to problem radiators?


    Do you have the install manual?
    The skim instructions are included. They have the "hot" version of skimming.
    This is the "hot to cold" version.
    And study the piping install pictures.
    In steam piping the orientation of a simple Tee can make all the difference in the operation of the boiler.
    This is not water flowing thru pipes....rather it is steam in the upper part of the piping with water flowing in the lower part.
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 1,805
    on warming up the boiler to skim,
    you really don't want to get to a steaming boil,
    that would throw the oil up and coat the boiler above the water line also,
    just like you don't want to drain down first for the same reason as coating the sides on the way down,

    sure, warm it up, either go by feel on the risers, or watch thru the skim nipple, for the first wisps coming off the water,

    then as said, a slow, pencil sized flow thru the skim, for hours,

    expect to skim more than once
    known to beat dead horses
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,763
    Neilc, yes that is good advice.
    However the rising water might pick up any oils that got on the walls.

    But yes, don't bring to a boil before the process.

    And bring a book and chair for the process.

    There was a church boiler needing skimming.
    The Priest did this several times, said his morning prayers as he did it.

    I guess you could say the boiler was filled with Holy Water when he was done. :)
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 191
    your banging is coming from the incorrect piping at the boiler. first, your riser coming out of the boiler should be at least 24" above the water line before that first elbow. second your bullheading the riser into a tee. absolute a no no. this is whats causing your banging. all the steam that is trying to go up the run of that tee is pushing all that condensate back up into the piping and causing the banging. also causes surging of the water line in the boiler because it cannot act like a true equalizer with steam getting condensed and then flashing from rapidly condensing.
    make the installer change it and all of the banging will go away, providing there wasn't an issue before the install. incorrect installation of the near boiler piping is critical to the success of an installation of a new steam boiler. its the starting point for dry steam. mess it up there and your chasing your tail. its the first thing you look for and correct before moving on. i can't stress that enough. a lot of times you think its being caused by something else going on in the system when in reality the near boiler piping was incorrect. I've re-piped many boilers where the near boiler piping was incorrect and had an 100% success rate.
    i mean think about it. if there wasn't a problem before you put it in then it has to be something at the boiler that is not right. correct what you know is wrong. its your starting point. if you still have a problem after at least you have eliminated that portion of the problem.
    also your system is a two pipe gravity return which explains the air vents at your radiators. each return from each radiator has to tie in the return piping below the water line. worked on these system in multiple 64 unit apartment buildings in cambridge.