Gorton 2 vs Barnes and Jones Big Mouth

matt1912

Hi everyone. Current single pipe steam set up is New Yorker Boiler model #CGS40C with one single 60ft 2in main supplying six radiators (two upstairs and four on main level). I am having trouble getting heat to the last two radiators on the line. I have slowly been optimizing my system based off the recommendations and knowledge on this site over the last year When I moved into the home, the system was vented with a single Hoffman 4A main vent. The first thing I did was replace all the radiator air vents with Vari-Valve adjustable vents. They were overworked and making lots of noise (air escaping) due to insufficient main venting. To fix this, I replaced the old Hoffman 4A main vent with a Gorton 2. It solved the hissing noise coming from the radiator air vents. However, I know that a single Gorton 2 is not capable of venting my entire system. Rule of thumb tells me my system requires a total of three Gorton 2s (one gorton 2 vents 20ft of 2in main).

My question for you all: Should I add two more Gorton 2s or a single Barnes and Jones Big Mouth? I am intrigued by the cost saving measures of only buying one big mouth vs two Gortons, but I have read there is a high failure rate with the Big Mouth. Any input is appreciated, Thanks in advance!

STEAM DOCTOR

Turn heat off. Let things cool down for a while. Turn heat back on. See how long it takes from time header gets hot, until end of main gets hot. 

ChrisJ

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Turn heat off. Let things cool down for a while. Turn heat back on. See how long it takes from time header gets hot, until end of main gets hot. 

That's certainly not how I do my test 

I fire the boiler until a few sections of the radiators are hot, shut it down for 5 minutes and then fire it again and watch the pressure.

The main vents should be fast enough under those conditions.  If the pressure doesn't remain low it needs more venting.

ethicalpaul

Add one if you wish to start with, but it might not change the timing very much. A Gorton #2 is a lot of vent. The steam just doesn't go as fast down the main as some people state.

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

Add one if you wish to start with, but it might not change the timing very much. A Gorton #2 is a lot of vent. The steam just doesn't go as fast down the main as some people state.

Mine after being off for 5 minutes has the steam travel down the main at 0.4mph if I did my math right.

That's with 1" insulation.

32 feet of main in about 60 seconds +-

Jamie Hall

I have a slight variation on the pressure test -- but keep in mind that any of the pressure tests require a good low pressure gauge.

I fire up from cold. When the boiler starts to make steam, watch the pressure. It may rise to an ounce or two -- maybe as much as 3 or 4. And then it should stay there, or very close to there, until all or nearly all the radiator vents close. If it keeps on rising, I'd add another Gorton #2.

There's nothing inherentlty wrong with the Big Mouth. It's a well proven... steam trap. The difference, and the difference in cost, is that there's no float in it, so if you have any sort of water problem -- even wet steam -- it's going to spit.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

I have a slight variation on the pressure test -- but keep in mind that any of the pressure tests require a good low pressure gauge. I fire up from cold. When the boiler starts to make steam, watch the pressure. It may rise to an ounce or two -- maybe as much as 3 or 4. And then it should stay there, or very close to there, until all or nearly all the radiator vents close. If it keeps on rising, I'd add another Gorton #2. There's nothing inherentlty wrong with the Big Mouth. It's a well proven... steam trap. The difference, and the difference in cost, is that there's no float in it, so if you have any sort of water problem -- even wet steam -- it's going to spit.

So on really cold nights, when the boiler is firing often and the piping stays "piping hot'. You don't mind much higher back pressure on those days?  As long as it performs acceptably from a cold start?




The pressure I see is an 1/8 of an ounce during your test.  I see half an ounce during mine.

But I bet on most systems it would be much higher

STEAM DOCTOR

ChrisJ said:

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Turn heat off. Let things cool down for a while. Turn heat back on. See how long it takes from time header gets hot, until end of main gets hot. 

That's certainly not how I do my test 

I fire the boiler until a few sections of the radiators are hot, shut it down for 5 minutes and then fire it again and watch the pressure.

The main vents should be fast enough under those conditions.  If the pressure doesn't remain low it needs more venting.

This is a good way to start. Bear in mind that most people do not have the proper guages to accurately monitor pressure. If steam is getting from header to end of main in 45 minutes, then you are in need of more venting. If it's taking 60 seconds, then you probably have enough venting. 

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

Jamie Hall said:

I have a slight variation on the pressure test -- but keep in mind that any of the pressure tests require a good low pressure gauge.

I fire up from cold. When the boiler starts to make steam, watch the pressure. It may rise to an ounce or two -- maybe as much as 3 or 4. And then it should stay there, or very close to there, until all or nearly all the radiator vents close. If it keeps on rising, I'd add another Gorton #2.

There's nothing inherentlty wrong with the Big Mouth. It's a well proven... steam trap. The difference, and the difference in cost, is that there's no float in it, so if you have any sort of water problem -- even wet steam -- it's going to spit.

So on really cold nights, when the boiler is firing often and the piping stays "piping hot'. You don't mind much higher back pressure on those days?  As long as it performs acceptably from a cold start?




The pressure I see is an 1/8 of an ounce during your test.  I see half an ounce during mine.

But I bet on most systems it would be much higher



I didn't mention the next part of the setup, since we were only talking -- I thought -- about main vents. The rest of the story, as Paul Harvey used to say, is that the pressure will never rise if the boiler is matched to the radiation. If it isn't, and is oversized -- as so many are -- then the solution is to turn the boiler off. If the oversize isn't too bad, the best way to do that is a vapourstat set for about half again the plateau running pressure, and a cutin about half of the cutout. If the boiler is seriously oversized, it may be better to resort to a timing delay to force it to stay off after hitting the cutin limit.

I'll use Cedric -- the boiler in one of the buildings I maintain. He is very closely sized to the radiation, and on a long call for heat -- out of a setback, perhaps -- he will run for between an hour and an hour and fifteen minutes with only a slight rise in pressure (from about 2 ounces to about 4 ounces). At that point the pressure starts to rise quickly, and at 7 ounces he shuts off. The pressure drops quickly from condensing in the radiation, and reaches the cutin of 2 ounces at about the same time the post-purge cycle on the burner -- 30 seconds -- finishes. By the time the pre-purge cycle ends -- another 15 seconds -- and the boiler fires, the pressure is almost down to zero and the boiler fires again -- and will run for another 15 to 20 minutes, if need be, at the low running pressure.

A less well matched boiler would have a shorter run time after the first pressure cutoff, and also a shorter run time before the first pressure cutoff.

ChrisJ

@Jamie Hall

We were only talking about main vents.

Main vents on single pipe systems have to handle all of the air being pushed back out every time the boiler fires and it's going to be it's fastest with hot piping.

Much slower with old piping.

matt1912

UPDATE:

Sub 20F outside temps in Michigan tonight. I let the system cool off completely until all pipes were cold. I started the boiler up and recorded the following times:

Boiler firing --> header pipe hot to touch: 4mins
Header pipe hot to touch --> end of main hot to touch: 20mins

The boiler continued to run for an additional 40mins for a total run time of 60mins. This is significantly longer than it normally runs and I attribute this to it starting the cycle from completely cold. It should also be noted that much of the asbestos insulation has been removed from the final 25ft of basement main. I have 1" fiberglass insulation currently being shipped.

Back to my main question: Do we think it is most appropriate to order two Gortons or 1 Big Mouth?

Thanks again

ethicalpaul

Run the test again with hot pipes. With cold pipes, you are timing how long it takes the steam to heat up your pipes, and that's not really a useful metric when trying to determine if you have enough main venting.

ChrisJ

matt1912 said:

UPDATE:

Sub 20F outside temps in Michigan tonight. I let the system cool off completely until all pipes were cold. I started the boiler up and recorded the following times:

Boiler firing --> header pipe hot to touch: 4mins
Header pipe hot to touch --> end of main hot to touch: 20mins

The boiler continued to run for an additional 40mins for a total run time of 60mins. This is significantly longer than it normally runs and I attribute this to it starting the cycle from completely cold. It should also be noted that much of the asbestos insulation has been removed from the final 25ft of basement main. I have 1" fiberglass insulation currently being shipped.

Back to my main question: Do we think it is most appropriate to order two Gortons or 1 Big Mouth?

Thanks again

After seeing the issues many have had with Gorton vents lately, but also with the Big Mouth that's a tough one.

The Big Mouth is repairable and can easily be taken apart so I'd probably go that route. If it's seeping steam etc it's only a Steam Trap + an O ring so it should be easily repairable.

SteamingatMohawk

@matt1912 You said, "I am having trouble getting heat to the last two radiators on the line."

Your boiler appears to have 63,000 BTU heating capacity, based on info posted on supplyhouse for that boiler.

You mention Varivalve radiator vents. For each location, what is each set at? There are no numbers, just estimate the position between the minimum and maximum (1/4, 1/2, or something else).
Which room has the thermostat?

Those vents have a large capacity. The minimum venting is about a #5, while the fully open is more than a #1. They do not fully shut off.

The general principle is to vent the main(s) quickly and the radiators more slowly and "synchronized" so all get the rooms warm at the same time.

For such a small system, they may have too much capacity.

Is the main vent located after the last riser? If not, where is it?

You could also temporarily remove the main vent and do the timing test. If it vents the same without the vent installed as with it installed, you don't gain anything by adding more capacity.

JUGHNE

Is there a source for the replacement O ring on BJBM vents?
In following the history of development of the BM as reported on the Wall a few years ago, there was mention of an improved O ring.

I have used these and some will pass a little steam and water.
These were up on 4' high 3/4" risers.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@matt1912


I would do the test again with the gorto vent removed. My guess is adding 1 more Gorton will do it

dopey27177

Here is a simple way to test your system. You have one large main vent valve on your steam main or two large vent valves if you have a split steam main system and all the radiators have vent valves that work

Shut the boiler down and let the water get cold. Fire the boiler up from a cold start, if the radiators get hot in 20 minutes or less you need not do any thing. Second test shut the boiler again for 1 hour, fire up the boiler the boiler, if the radiators get hot in 10 minutes or less you need not do anything.

Remember all your radiator vent valves are venting air along with the main vent valves.
Tge piping in the building controls the velocity of the steam and there is no way that you can make steam or air flow through the pipe faster than the design velocity of the pipe.

Assume the main vents are point A and the radiators are point B.

Why worry about point A or how fast the steam main gets hot. What you should be concerned about is how fast point B the radiators get hot.

The timing of 20 minutes or less for the radiators to get hot from a cold start (not shut down because the thermostat is satisfied) is appropriate for all boilers (small boilers and small systems will get hot quicker).

The timing of 10 minutes or less for the radiators to hot after a 1 hour shut down shows the system overall is fine. You may have some radiators not heating up as fast as other radiators, that may be a balance problem and has to addressed differently.

jake

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

Is there a source for the replacement O ring on BJBM vents?
In following the history of development of the BM as reported on the Wall a few years ago, there was mention of an improved O ring.

I have used these and some will pass a little steam and water.
These were up on 4' high 3/4" risers.

If I have some time in the near future I'll open the BM I have and look at what O ring is in it
I'm sure McMaster has something.

ethicalpaul

dopey27177 said:

Why worry about point A or how fast the steam main gets hot. What you should be concerned about is how fast point B the radiators get hot.

Hi jake--
The reason we worry about it in this thread is because the question at hand is "how much more main venting should I have?"

The way to answer that is to separate the issue of radiator venting, and you do that by timing steam from boiler to main vent.

Gsmith

JUGHNE said:

Is there a source for the replacement O ring on BJBM vents?
In following the history of development of the BM as reported on the Wall a few years ago, there was mention of an improved O ring.

I have used these and some will pass a little steam and water.
These were up on 4' high 3/4" risers.

Try B&J directly. I bought two Big Mouths about 3 years ago and one was defective out of the box. B&J was very responsive and sent me a replacement internal and o-ring.

Chris_L

ethicalpaul said:

Run the test again with hot pipes. With cold pipes, you are timing how long it takes the steam to heat up your pipes, and that's not really a useful metric when trying to determine if you have enough main venting.

But the amount of time it takes to heat the mains depends on how quickly they are vented.

I think it is best to do the testing from a cold start. That is the time you want to minimize. When the mains are hot, say after a Pressuretrol shutoff, the amount of main venting is less important. (And if you system is sized right, you won't have many hot restarts anyway.)

I sized my main venting by timing how long it took the steam to reach the end of the mains on a cold start with the vents removed (from the time the boiler riser got hot). And than added MoM No 1 vents, until I got no more improvement. I consider any reduction in the time for the steam to reach the radiators when the system is hot (or even warm) just an added benefit.

SteamingatMohawk

And if you are venting just as fast with the main vent installed as with the vent removed, you don't have to do anything, because the system can't vent any faster than with no vent.

ethicalpaul

Chris_L said:

ethicalpaul said:

Run the test again with hot pipes. With cold pipes, you are timing how long it takes the steam to heat up your pipes, and that's not really a useful metric when trying to determine if you have enough main venting.

But the amount of time it takes to heat the mains depends on how quickly they are vented.

I think it is best to do the testing from a cold start. That is the time you want to minimize. When the mains are hot, say after a Pressuretrol shutoff, the amount of main venting is less important. (And if you system is sized right, you won't have many hot restarts anyway.)

I sized my main venting by timing how long it took the steam to reach the end of the mains on a cold start with the vents removed (from the time the boiler riser got hot). And than added MoM No 1 vents, until I got no more improvement. I consider any reduction in the time for the steam to reach the radiators when the system is hot (or even warm) just an added benefit.

We are going to confuse this poor person.

When the main pipes are cold, that slows down the steam because it gets used up having to heat the cold pipes. That will not give you a good idea of how much main venting you need.

If you time it when the main pipes are hot (but full of air), then you are duplicating what will happen time and again during a cold day when the thermostat calls for heat repeatedly during the day and the pipes stay warm between calls. THAT is when the main venting really helps.

Hap_Hazzard

ethicalpaul said:

If you time it when the main pipes are hot (but full of air), then you are duplicating what will happen time and again during a cold day when the thermostat calls for heat repeatedly during the day and the pipes stay warm between calls. THAT is when the main venting really helps.

My pipes get cold (that is to say, room temperature) between heating cycles, even on cold days. The only time the boiler starts with warm pipes is after a CycleGard level test, but I'm pretty sure the main vents stay closed.

I'm not even sure how to tell how long it takes a main to fill if it's already warm. Isn't getting warm how we tell a main is filling?

ethicalpaul

I feel for air escaping the main vent until it closes to the steam

SteamingatMohawk

@ethicalpaul Agreed. Correction to my statement.

When I said "no vent", I should have said with the vent removed, just the open connection to the system.

As far as cold iron vs. warm system, what is most important is that the conditions are as close as possible otherwise the results can be misleading. Cold iron will have to be done several hours apart, maybe even two different days.

Better to do 2 runs the same day with the same conditions.

ChrisJ

Seriously.

The OP asked a reasonable question and all these comments about cold piping etc.

Sizing main vents for when the steam travels down the mains and pushes air out the slowest (when they're cold) seems borderline insane to me.


Fire the boiler, wait until the mains are fully vented and heated. Turn it off and wait 5 to 10 minutes.  Fire it again and listen to the main vents or even the radiator vents.  Are they loud?  Do you hear high velocity air leaving them?  If so you need more venting.

The timing is moot.  
The behavior with cold piping is moot.


I need an aspirin.

Chris_L

I can take the vents off of my mains and hear the radiators venting (briefly) when water in the water in the boiler starts boiling. So that doesn't mean anything to me.

How long does it take to get steam to your radiators when the Pressuretrol cuts back in after a cut-out? It is negligible. That is because the main venting doesn't matter under do those conditions. (And unless you've got a vacuum system, all your pipes are full of air when it cuts back in.)

That is why measuring steam travel time to optimize venting on a hot system seems borderline insane to me.

I don't need an aspirin. I've got the experience.

Steamhead

@matt1912 , just get a second Gorton #2. That should be plenty for your main.

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

Sizing main vents for when the steam travels down the mains and pushes air out the slowest (when they're cold) seems borderline insane to me.

There is literally no other set of circumstances under which air is being vented from my mains. It takes at least 45 minutes for the temperature in my house to drop far enough for the thermostat to call for heat, and by then the pipes are at room temperature, isulation notwithstanding. Sizing vents for optimal performance under conditions that never occur seems borderline insane to me.

ChrisJ

Hap_Hazzard said:

Sizing main vents for when the steam travels down the mains and pushes air out the slowest (when they're cold) seems borderline insane to me.

There is literally no other set of circumstances under which air is being vented from my mains. It takes at least 45 minutes for the temperature in my house to drop far enough for the thermostat to call for heat, and by then the pipes are at room temperature, isulation notwithstanding. Sizing vents for optimal performance under conditions that never occur seems borderline insane to me.

Your system is never off for less than 45 minutes?  Even when it's 0f or colder out?

BobC

Cold timing can tell you if you have a problem with steam getting down a main, it takes more time so it gives you time to feel the progress of the steam. Maybe a droop is holding water and condensing the steam trying to get down the main?

Bob

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

Your system is never off for less than 45 minutes?  Even when it's 0f or colder out?

Tell you what; next time it gets below zero here, I'll time it for you. You might have to wait a few years for the answer. And, to be honest, I don't think optimizing a system for something that happens maybe once every five years or so is a whole lot saner than for something that never happens at all.

ChrisJ

Hap_Hazzard said:

ChrisJ said:

Your system is never off for less than 45 minutes?  Even when it's 0f or colder out?

Tell you what; next time it gets below zero here, I'll time it for you. You might have to wait a few years for the answer. And, to be honest, I don't think optimizing a system for something that happens maybe once every five years or so is a whole lot saner than for something that never happens at all.

It doesn't really matter to me, I was just curious.
My system is never off for 45 minutes except maybe in the spring and early fall.

My mains stay fairly warm all winter. The only actual times I have remembered are when it's -8F out the system runs roughly a 70% duty cycle at 3 CPH. So, 14 minutes on 6 minutes off.

0F happens often enough by me, teens are common in January-February.

I would guess the longest "normal" off cycle would be 25 minutes for me. But I need my system to behave correctly and remain balanced under all conditions, not just most.

That's my opinion and how I feel a system should operate.
You do what you feel is best.

Hap_Hazzard

If I make my system cycle as fast as you're describing, the basement gets hot and the upstairs stays cold. Mine's a lot more like 3hrs/cycle than 3cycles/hr.

Jamie Hall

Argh. I like my method. Takes one firing, hot or cold... but it does need a low pressure gauge. Fire the boiler up (should have been off for a while, but needn't be stone cold). After a bit, it will start to make steam. Watch the pressure. It should rise a bit -- usually to around 2 to 4 ounces, but it can be more on some two pipe systems and many one pipe systems.. And then it should stay there, maybe rising as much as another ounce, until most or all the radiators are filled. Then it will start to rise again (which is where you want your pressure control to shut things down). If that works, you're good. If not -- if the pressure keeps rising -- you need more main venting.

Hap_Hazzard

I have a 3 lb. gauge. My pressure is negligible until the main vents are closed, then it rises gradually as the radiator vents are closing, eventually getting up to 0.5 (8 oz.) where it stays until the thermostat is satisfied. It never shuts down on pressure.

ChrisJ

I'm just over here enjoying being able to have balanced heat from 10 radiators with a cycle as short as 3 minutes.  

Jamie's over there building 8 times the pressure I heat with just to get steam down the empty pipes.   Why is that called a vapor system?


But there's little point in me talking I guess.  


Cheers guys.

matt1912

Thank you everyone for the input! Ive given up on testing the system and I am just going to insulate the mains with 1' fiberglass, add a big mouth valve, and hope for the best!

ChrisJ

matt1912 said:

Thank you everyone for the input! Ive given up on testing the system and I am just going to insulate the mains with 1' fiberglass, add a big mouth valve, and hope for the best!

Do what you feel is best.
I think you're on the right track.

gfrbrookline

For what it is worth I think everyone missed what @SteamingatMohawk picked up in the initial post. All of the radiators are vented with varivents which are way too aggressive. This system needs to add main venting and slow down the radiators. The pipes need to be insulated as previously stated.