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chickengirl

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Jamie Hall

Well, honestly I really can't make out much of the forest from the trees with those photos. Some further back away from the boiler would probably help...

Is this process team for the restaurant? Or is it space heating? Or what?

In sort of a partial answer -- there should never be any significant water in either a steam main. If there is, there is something wrong -- could be high pressure, could be very bad piping, any number of things. Nor should there ever be water in any quantity in a dry return. There is condensate flowing in a, however, which needs to be dripped to a wet return.

Since you have a condensate receiver, every vertical line down to wet returns or the condensate receiver must have an F&T trap on it; I see a couple of them which appear to be new or at least newer.

May I suggest that you get someone in there who really knows steam heat? I'm not convinced that your heating contractor does. You might try @New England SteamWorks ; you can send them a personal message by clicking on the name.

JUGHNE

Did this system always have a feeder pump and tank?
Did it have F&T's before and is the return piping pretty well hanging where it was before?

F&T....Float and Thermostat traps can vent air in themselves, provided the outlet pipe is open to air, such as into a vented tank as you seem to have. But with the water seal loop you have with the wet return and then up into the tank the F&T air venting capacity is gone (IMO).

The F&T will stop the steam flow and dump condensate only (mostly) into the outlet pipe.


You say vacuum system, are there some components we do not see?
What pressure does the system run at?

And more pictures as Jamie mentioned.

retiredguy

We need a better explanation of the system including pictures that are taken from a greater distance. I have never seen vents on an F&T trap. What lines are they servicing. I think that you need to contact a good steam company as @Jamie Hall suggested.

chickengirl

more pictures have been added as well and more detail description-

JUGHNE

Do the F&T's return water from your "dry return" of the returning water from the radiator traps?

It looks like you have 3 end of steam mains coming back to the "wet return" at the boiler down to the floor.
Is that correct? Do one or two pipes drop down into the wet return?

The boiler has one large main going off and spliting into 3 separate areas, yes?

Can you show us some of your radiators that will show both ends.
The inlet valve one end and the outlet trap on the opposite end.

Pumpguy

Still not seeing more pictures or added detail.

Also not seeing anything relating to your telling us its a vacuum system. Can you tell us why you think its a vacuum system? Any pictures of a vacuum producer?

JUGHNE

I think the new pictures got added to the top of the post.
IIUC, the 2 dry returns are now connected to the inlet of the tank.

Old pictures have them connected into the low wet return.....I think.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@chickengirl

Unfortunately your system is a mess. I think this is much more than can be explained. You REALLY need a good steam contractor.
Check "find a contractor" on this site and post your location

JUGHNE

Did she ever state what the problem was?

chickengirl

Jughne,  you are correct, the new pipes do connect to the water tank inlet.  I added a picture of a radiator., I just wanted to make sure the new pipes  are piped correctly.

JUGHNE

If you add more pictures do it down here with your text.

I assume the F&T's are returns from the radiator traps.
The rad traps should stop the steam at those points. Then that pipe should have only air and water in it, not needing any additional traps to stop the travel of steam.
However, F&T's will vent air thru them and down into the top of the tank, which is vented to open atmosphere. But double trapping, if that is the case here, can lead to other problems.

My guess is that there are 3 end of steam mains that come back to the boiler area.
These should have air vents on them and then drop down to the wet return and then up into the tank.

However each should drop separately into the wet return and be individually vented separately.
The shorter steam main will have steam arrive before the other 2 and close the vents.
The remaining 2 steam mains will be somewhat air bound, perhaps slow to heat.

Perhaps others here can comment differently.

chickengirl

JUGHNE said:

If you add more pictures do it down here with your text. I assume the F&T's are returns from the radiator traps. The rad traps should stop the steam at those points. Then that pipe should have only air and water in it, not needing any additional traps to stop the travel of steam. However, F&T's will vent air thru them and down into the top of the tank, which is vented to open atmosphere. But double trapping, if that is the case here, can lead to other problems. My guess is that there are 3 end of steam mains that come back to the boiler area. These should have air vents on them and then drop down to the wet return and then up into the tank. However each should drop separately into the wet return and be individually vented separately. The shorter steam main will have steam arrive before the other 2 and close the vents. The remaining 2 steam mains will be somewhat air bound, perhaps slow to heat. Perhaps others here can comment differently.

Thank you.   We did originally have the lines come down separately , including air vents( bottom picture (covered in foil, when we had them leaking) but water came out of the air vents (middle cycle in one pipe and at end cycle on the other pipe) that were installed.  That’s when air vents were removed and both pipes were re-piped, lines went directly into the water tank inlet .  The system has been working fine, I’m just worried about what could happen and what I should watch out for.

delcrossv

What is covered with foil?

chickengirl

Air vents-  water was coming out of air vents. I put the foil on them because I did not want them to get damaged by the water.   With the new change, both air vents were removed and the piping is not feed directly into the water tank inlet.

JUGHNE

Things to watch out for and do:

Is the system quiet when running?

Do you flush, that is "blow down", the valves above the red buckets once a week?
(This should be done once a week when the boiler is firing)

Do the one on the left first, open valve and let about 1-2 gallons run out....it will be hot water/steam.
The burner should shut off and the pump add water to the boiler, then the burner will start again.

Let burner run for a few minutes then open the right valve the same as above....hot water/steam again.
1-2 gallons flush out. The burner should shut off, pump might add water perhaps, that is OK.
You may have to push a reset button on the back side of the electric box on that device, burner should start then. If you have to ever push that reset button to start burner WITHOUT you doing the blow down you need to call for service.

The blow downs assure that the low water cut off are functional and being flushed as needed.
These are critical safety devices for your boiler. The must shut down the burner when activated.

Considering the investment you have in your house and heating system, it is recommended that you have a water meter installed on the water line that feeds the tank that has the pump on it.

A plumber could do this.
You want to be able to monitor the amount of fresh water that goes into your boiler.
Fresh water contains oxygen that will rot thru the cast iron of the boiler, which will then require replacement at considerable expense.

There is another manual fill valve which you should not use to fill the boiler on a normal basis.

Also observe the pressure indicated on the gauges when the boiler is running at full heating.

More than a few gallons a week is too much and you have a leak somewhere that you perhaps cannot see.
(your blow down may account for 2-4 of these gallons.

ethicalpaul

If I may ask, why are there so many controls on this residential boiler? I see 3 pressure controls and two float style LWCOs. Is this an apartment house?

chickengirl

If I may ask, why are there so many controls on this residential boiler? I see 3 pressure controls and two float style LWCOs. Is this an apartment house?

Response

This is for a home, the boiler is commercial size, not sure why owner before us had this one installed.  We do have 3 full floors and lots of radiators

chickengirl

JUGHNE said:

Things to watch out for and do: Is the system quiet when running? Do you flush, that is "blow down", the valves above the red buckets once a week? (This should be done once a week when the boiler is firing) Do the one on the left first, open valve and let about 1-2 gallons run out....it will be hot water/steam. The burner should shut off and the pump add water to the boiler, then the burner will start again. Let burner run for a few minutes then open the right valve the same as above....hot water/steam again. 1-2 gallons flush out. The burner should shut off, pump might add water perhaps, that is OK. You may have to push a reset button on the back side of the electric box on that device, burner should start then. If you have to ever push that reset button to start burner WITHOUT you doing the blow down you need to call for service. The blow downs assure that the low water cut off are functional and being flushed as needed. These are critical safety devices for your boiler. The must shut down the burner when activated. Considering the investment you have in your house and heating system, it is recommended that you have a water meter installed on the water line that feeds the tank that has the pump on it. A plumber could do this. You want to be able to monitor the amount of fresh water that goes into your boiler. Fresh water contains oxygen that will rot thru the cast iron of the boiler, which will then require replacement at considerable expense. There is another manual fill valve which you should not use to fill the boiler on a normal basis. Also observe the pressure indicated on the gauges when the boiler is running at full heating. More than a few gallons a week is too much and you have a leak somewhere that you perhaps cannot see. (your blow down may account for 2-4 of these gallons.

Thank you for your response, the system runs well, not very quiet, definitely not loud, no banging( we hand water hammer problem in the wet return BEFORE THE NEW PIPING, at the end of each cycle, right before machine hit 1.5psi, no longer an issue). This system is commercial size, from previous home owners.  Home is 4200 sq feet, lots of radiators.

we do flush 1x week, when the machine is off- I will definitely flush during boiler firing, left one first, thank you for this information 

the boiler cut off is at 1.5psi, which does work.  System shuts down for a few mins, then restarts again.