Rector seal 8-way

kevinA60

Will 8-way help with new boiler producing wet steam. Boiler was replaced last year.. mains certainly have water in them. I can hear it swooshing. My single pipe system has no main vents. Most of the piping is original from 1929. Wet return replaced with boiler last year. I'm sick of hearing hammering on startup. All radiators pitched correctly and rad vents new and sized accordingly with maid of mist 

KC_Jones

Banging is steam encountering water where it shouldn’t be in enough quantity to cause banging.  Some of the causes are bad pitch, improper boiler piping, oversized boiler, or the boiler wasn’t properly skimmed when installed.

The water treatment is good for boiler longevity, but won’t do much if anything for the issues you are having.

Was the boiler skimmed when installed?
Was the boiler properly sized when installed?  This means they measured all the radiators to size off the connected radiation.
Is the boiler piped at least to minimum specifications.  You can post pictures and we can let you know if you aren’t sure.
Lastly you can check pipe slope and sags.  If you have parallel flow, the pipes should be highest at the connection to the header and slope continuously down from that point until returning to the boiler, must likely with a straight drop into the wet return.

EBEBRATT-Ed

And if you don't have main air vents why not? Maybe they didn't need them back in the coal days but without them now it only make things worse.

Lets see some pics of the boiler and piping

kevinA60

I did skim the boiler at the beginning of this season but and used scout boiler cleaner. The installer most definitely did not measure the radiators. I believe he judged it by the original boiler which I added a pic of as well. New boiler is burnham In7. All my radiators get boiling hot so it's doing its job without a problem. I just know hammering on start up and hearing water swooshing is wrong. My pressure is set at .5 lb or a little under. I have it as low as possible to possibly help if boiler is oversized 



Old boiler 

Jamie Hall

As has been said, the hammering and swooshing is all due to water being where it shouldn't be. Bpoiler treatment chemicals won't make that better, but it is quite possible that they will make it worse. You mention that you used Scout as a cleaner; I hope that you drained the boiler completely afterwards and refilled it with clean water.

Otherwise. You need main vents. They really aren't optional with modern boilers.

You also need to check the ptich of all the steam mains and runouts. I do notice one partially wet return at a rather steep pitch on the basement wall. This should be checked to make sure that it is solidly below the water line for its full length, and may have to be lowered to accomplish that. I don't see a wet return from the other direction, and that steam main may be counterflow -- in which case it may need more pitch back to the boiler. I can't really tell from the pictures.

KC_Jones

If that is indeed an IN7 then it's piped improperly which is most likely part or all of your issue. The IN7 is supposed to use both 2" supplies and have a 3" header.

The installer needs to re-pipe the boiler to manufacturers specifications. As it sits it's going to suck water out of that boiler and cause banging.

kevinA60

KC_Jones said:

If that is indeed an IN7 then it's piped improperly which is most likely part or all of your issue. The IN7 is supposed to use both 2" supplies and have a 3" header. The installer needs to re-pipe the boiler to manufacturers specifications. As it sits it's going to suck water out of that boiler and cause banging.

It is an IN6. Typo. Manual shows second 2" supply optional.  My problem is most of the pipes are behind walls after basement was finished last year. Through the years copper risers were added to renovated spaces in house. Could that have an affect?

Hap_Hazzard

KC_Jones said:

If that is indeed an IN7 then it's piped improperly which is most likely part or all of your issue. The IN7 is supposed to use both 2" supplies and have a 3" header.

The installer needs to re-pipe the boiler to manufacturers specifications. As it sits it's going to suck water out of that boiler and cause banging.

This. 100%

Most of the existing pipe can be re-used, but you absolutely must have two risers, and the risers should go straight up at least 24" from the water line to the bottom of the swing arms, and the header should be at least 3", and the equalizer should drop straight down to the water line from the end of the header. The take-offs for the mains should be after the supply risers and before the equalizer.

Having a single riser on a 7-section boiler is going to suck excess water out of the boiler, lowering the water level, and forcing most of the water into the section with the riser. The water level in the section with the skim tapping will get dangerously low, exposing the heat exchanger to dry fire, and the LWCO, which is on the opposite side, won't shut down the burners to protect it. When the boiler finally shuts down on pressure or thermostat, the water level in that section will quickly return to normal, bringing water into contact with red-hot iron. This will happen every time the boiler cycles, and before too long the section will crack, and, because it wasn't piped according to the manufacturer's instructions, the warranty won't cover it.

In a way you're lucky that your pipes are banging. Think of this as your wake-up call.

KC_Jones

You might be opening up walls...

Pipe pitch is critical. Verifying you don't have sags is critical. Having the pipes insulated fully is important.

Copper is a mixed bag, it's not supposed to be used on steam. I have yet to see copper steam supplies posted on here that weren't either leaking, or had been leaking as evidence by all kinds of staining on the outside of them.

There is no quick fix for the issues you are having.

STEAM DOCTOR

Even for an In6, that piping is pitiful. I know that it's per manufacturer specs(assuming pitch is correct), but it will suck out water at a rather rapid clip. Shame on Burnham for the lousy specs. 

kevinA60

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Even for an In6, that piping is pitiful. I know that it's per manufacturer specs(assuming pitch is correct), but it will suck out water at a rather rapid clip. Shame on Burnham for the lousy specs. 

So down the road I should look into adding the second riser to the header. Any ideas of what j can do now to help the fact. Or just be happy that everyone in the house is warm hehe

kevinA60

KC_Jones said:

You might be opening up walls... Pipe pitch is critical. Verifying you don't have sags is critical. Having the pipes insulated fully is important. Copper is a mixed bag, it's not supposed to be used on steam. I have yet to see copper steam supplies posted on here that weren't either leaking, or had been leaking as evidence by all kinds of staining on the outside of them. There is no quick fix for the issues you are having.

Wouldn't I see water being sucked up into mains through the site glass? The water doesn't even jump a 1/4" when system is starting up. And does not jump while running. Looks to be very smooth 

KC_Jones

kevinA60 said:

KC_Jones said:

You might be opening up walls...

Pipe pitch is critical. Verifying you don't have sags is critical. Having the pipes insulated fully is important.

Copper is a mixed bag, it's not supposed to be used on steam. I have yet to see copper steam supplies posted on here that weren't either leaking, or had been leaking as evidence by all kinds of staining on the outside of them.

There is no quick fix for the issues you are having.

Wouldn't I see water being sucked up into mains through the site glass? The water doesn't even jump a 1/4" when system is starting up. And does not jump while running. Looks to be very smooth 

For banging you are talking about ounces of water, not some amount you would see in a water level drop on the sight glass. It doesn't take much, in fact a few drops can make noise. In steam it's about pitching things to keep the condensate moving in such a way that the steam can't pick it up. Smooth flow, no turbulence, no obstructions and most certainly no puddles.

Also as a separate situation, you need main vents, the system performance will be poor without them, but adding them now, could exacerbate the issues you are already having as you will get the steam moving even faster through the mains.

As an aside, whoever did the copper, whoever didn't add main vents, and any other improper work, would not be invited back into my house again.

The boiler piping is to minimum spec, but if they didn't measure your radiators, is most likely over sized, which will also make it more challenging to get the system functioning properly.

ethicalpaul

You don't see the water getting sucked up through the sight glass...it gets sucked up through the steel supply pipe coming out the top of your boiler.

kevinA60

KC_Jones said:

KC_Jones said:

You might be opening up walls... Pipe pitch is critical. Verifying you don't have sags is critical. Having the pipes insulated fully is important. Copper is a mixed bag, it's not supposed to be used on steam. I have yet to see copper steam supplies posted on here that weren't either leaking, or had been leaking as evidence by all kinds of staining on the outside of them. There is no quick fix for the issues you are having.

Wouldn't I see water being sucked up into mains through the site glass? The water doesn't even jump a 1/4" when system is starting up. And does not jump while running. Looks to be very smooth 

For banging you are talking about ounces of water, not some amount you would see in a water level drop on the sight glass. It doesn't take much, in fact a few drops can make noise. In steam it's about pitching things to keep the condensate moving in such a way that the steam can't pick it up. Smooth flow, no turbulence, no obstructions and most certainly no puddles. Also as a separate situation, you need main vents, the system performance will be poor without them, but adding them now, could exacerbate the issues you are already having as you will get the steam moving even faster through the mains. As an aside, whoever did the copper, whoever didn't add main vents, and any other improper work, would not be invited back into my house again. The boiler piping is to minimum spec, but if they didn't measure your radiators, is most likely over sized, which will also make it more challenging to get the system functioning properly.

Thank you for your help. I have many things to consider here. If I have water sitting in pipes that I can't see (above ceilings or in walls) any good tips to blowing out the pipes. I tried closing all gate valves, removed radiator at end of line and attempted vacuuming with skim port open in basement so I wouldn't suck water from boiler. No such luck. Thinking of doing same except blow air with compressor into lines and push sitting water out of pipes

KC_Jones

kevinA60 said:

KC_Jones said:

kevinA60 said:

KC_Jones said:

You might be opening up walls...

Pipe pitch is critical. Verifying you don't have sags is critical. Having the pipes insulated fully is important.

Copper is a mixed bag, it's not supposed to be used on steam. I have yet to see copper steam supplies posted on here that weren't either leaking, or had been leaking as evidence by all kinds of staining on the outside of them.

There is no quick fix for the issues you are having.

Wouldn't I see water being sucked up into mains through the site glass? The water doesn't even jump a 1/4" when system is starting up. And does not jump while running. Looks to be very smooth 

For banging you are talking about ounces of water, not some amount you would see in a water level drop on the sight glass. It doesn't take much, in fact a few drops can make noise. In steam it's about pitching things to keep the condensate moving in such a way that the steam can't pick it up. Smooth flow, no turbulence, no obstructions and most certainly no puddles.

Also as a separate situation, you need main vents, the system performance will be poor without them, but adding them now, could exacerbate the issues you are already having as you will get the steam moving even faster through the mains.

As an aside, whoever did the copper, whoever didn't add main vents, and any other improper work, would not be invited back into my house again.

The boiler piping is to minimum spec, but if they didn't measure your radiators, is most likely over sized, which will also make it more challenging to get the system functioning properly.

Thank you for your help. I have many things to consider here. If I have water sitting in pipes that I can't see (above ceilings or in walls) any good tips to blowing out the pipes. I tried closing all gate valves, removed radiator at end of line and attempted vacuuming with skim port open in basement so I wouldn't suck water from boiler. No such luck. Thinking of doing same except blow air with compressor into lines and push sitting water out of pipes

Need to be very clear here. The pipes need to be sloped such that they can't accumulate water....ever. If there is water laying the only solution is to gain access to the pipe and fix the piping issue, if there is one. The only way to know if there is one is to check the pipes with a level and string line. Level checks pitch, string line verifies they are straight without sags.

Even if you could remove standing water, it's temporary and after a few boiler cycles the water will be back. Think of steam pipes like the drain system in your house. Everything needs to freely drain back to the boiler, if it doesn't you have problems.

kevinA60

Yes I understand. Thank you for your help. Will post what I end up finding after some digging around

neilc

unless you're talking about blowing out wet returns,
there is no sense in blowing mains, laterals, or what have yous,
they need to pitch to drain, either back on themselves as laterals,
or to wet returns,
otherwise more condensate will find the same low spots, and the sloshing anvils will return

delcrossv

It looks like one main (to the right) is pitched backwards where it comes off the riser from the header.