4 of 8 rads in one pipe system not heating, help please.

tjohnson2342

Tech is gonna come tomorrow. First order of business is to figure out why that LWCO is being triggered literally every few minutes. I sat down there tonight for a full hour just watching that water fluctuate and drain out so quickly after the boiler fired up each time. To the point where I’m getting a little scared to even run it. After all your posts and a lot of reading online resources this is beginning to scare me more than the radiators not getting heat. After that I will ask him about counter flow vs parallel and some other topics that were brought up in this thread. 

I’m honestly blown away at how helpful you all have been, this really is a great community.

KC_Jones

The first part of that main is counter flow for sure, elbowing vertical and the direction of slope is a dead giveaway.  That is most likely why it had a drip, either originally or added later by someone.

Seeing everything connected around the basement is a big help.

You definitely don’t have enough main venting, I’d say you need a Gorton #2 where the new vent is.

For me, looking at what the water is doing presents as a water quality issue.  PH is too high, possibly due to some kind of treatment or additive.  The water should be clear, in the video it looked cloudy indicating something has been added, at least to my eye.

Hap_Hazzard

KC_Jones said:

You definitely don’t have enough main venting, I’d say you need a Gorton #2 where the new vent is.

Someone might have slowed the venting intentionally because the boiler is blowing enough water into the mains to shut off on low water. Sure, we know that doesn't help, but to someone who doesn't understand how headers work, it might be a straw they'd grasp at.

mattmia2

Jamie Hall said:

Let's consider this. We have a steam main which is hot to the radiator takeoff. We have a riser which is hot to at least floor level. We have a vent which is open (how do we know? May want to take it off with someone standing by at the boiler to shut it down if steam starts coming out). We have not heat in the radiator.

Somewhere in about maybe 6 inches of pipe -- including a valve -- the steam stops completely.

And this happens alike on four radiators...

Something just doesn't compute.

Maybe somewhere in this process they changed the elevation of the main such that the runouts for those radiators now have a section that slopes away from the main and fills with water rather than toward the main.

mattmia2

Alright, watching the video, at very least the main should be dripped before it connects to the header since it turns up and over some framing, that section can't drain back to the boiler the other way so it needs a drip to return the condensate from that section to the boiler(although since it is just the pipe that is being heated it might work ok). After it goes up, does it continually slope toward the boiler return? it sort of looks like where it connects to the return it is level or slopes away.

ethicalpaul

@mattmia2 said exactly what I was going to say. At least part of this main is counterflow and needs a drip.

That, combined with the sudsy water seen in the first video, and combined with the standing water problem in the header would cause water in the main, which would render steam distribution unpredictable at best.

tjohnson2342

@mattmia2 @KC_Jones @Hap_Hazzard @Jamie Hall among others but you guys have been responding frequently. 

gentleman this thread has gotten very long and full of great info but I’d like to take some control of the conversation here as I do feel a little overwhelmed and I’d love if we could all work together to figure this out. I’m super appreciative of you all.

I'm posting another picture of the setup at the boiler. If someone wouldn’t mind doing a quick markup of the pic and labeling, supply, header, return etc… just so that I am on the same page with the terminology being used as I’m a novice and I wanna make sure I’m comprehending the advice. After all the responses I’ve isolated a few areas of concern that I def need to address here and I wanna make sure you all agree.

1) the LWCO being tripped so frequently and the overall level and stability of the water in sight glass during a cycle. Water condition, ph levels, the need for skimming have all been proposed solutions for this. 

2) counter flow vs. parallel flow nature of my particular system and main loop. From what I understand it looks like some of you are suggesting that it may have been a counterflow system before and was reconfigured to match a parallel flow system now? 

3) Pipe insulation. Seems to be a bit of a minor concern in the grand scheme of all my issues but everyone seems to be in agreement that whatever the solution is for other issues, insulating as much of the main as I can get my hands on is a good idea. I have some pipe insulation arriving today that I ordered online and feel confident that this simple fix I can accomplish. 

4) main venting and the need to possibly replace that main vent with a different one or perhaps some type of antler vent setup.

5) any one or all of these issues being fixed may or may not solve the issue of radiators not getting heat. Honestly at this point we are at 5 of 8 rads now getting heat with only one room in the house not having an hot rads at all. So the problem could be worse as the majority of the house does actually heat up. I think my bigger issues in the grand scheme of things is the ones listed above and once those are taken care of I can begin to fiddle around with those other 3 rads.

Once again I can’t relay enough how appreciative I am of you all and only wish you lived down the street so I could offer you food and beer and have you guys come over and turn me into a true steam homie. I have attached the pics which I hope someone wouldn’t mind marking up as I noted above and I also have linked in the videos posted on my Reddit so this can be somewhat of a reference comment and resource for everything I’ve shared so far.

what do you think? 

Boiler Loop
https://www.reddit.com/user/mr_robot2369/comments/rl0wqp/boiler_loop/

LWCO
https://www.reddit.com/user/mr_robot2369/comments/rj9q63/boiler_cycle/

tjohnson2342

mattmia2 said:

Alright, watching the video, at very least the main should be dripped before it connects to the header since it turns up and over some framing, that section can't drain back to the boiler the other way so it needs a drip to return the condensate from that section to the boiler(although since it is just the pipe that is being heated it might work ok). After it goes up, does it continually slope toward the boiler return? it sort of looks like where it connects to the return it is level or slopes away.

are you speaking of the part of the main that goes up over the louvered door and then slopes upwards through the ceiling before reappearing in my laundry room?

ethicalpaul

I don't know where your laundry room is, but I think we're talking about the part that is seen at 18 seconds.

tjohnson2342

@ethicalpaul @mattmia2 Okay I got ya, so your saying since that section is sloping upwards it should have a drip to return condensate from that section back to the boiler? To answer mattmia that section slopes up into the ceiling, runs parallel for a few feet, then reappears at 42 seconds in that video sloping downward toward the return and progressing along the main loop in that utility room, which is my laundry room.

STEAM DOCTOR

Boiler definitely needs to be skimmed/cleaned. All new boilers need to be skimmed. Especially Burnham In. They are more susceptible to water line issues. You may have bad piping, have not been following the entire thread, but bad piping will not cause the low water cutoff to trip every few minutes. Water is being tossed out of your boiler at an incredibly fast rate. That water is getting into the system and killing the steam.

ethicalpaul

Yes. Pretend you are water in that pipe. (Steam is condensing in there, so there will always be water).

Where will that water go? It will flow downhill all the way back to the header (the horizontal piping directly above your boiler).

Then it will try to go down the steam supply back into the boiler.

But it is being met by steam rushing upward from the boiler. The steam will push the water up and prevent it from returning to the boiler. As the steam hits that water, it too will condense, causing more water in that area.

Just like an old coffee percolator, the steam will "carry" this water up into your main. This is why your level drops during a firing cycle.

Now imagine water sloshing around throughout your main. How can the steam get distributed to your radiators when all that water is gurgling around?

Normally, there would always be some water in the main, but it would be a little on the bottom of the pipe, flowing along with the steam (parallel flow) toward the wet return (the place where the main drops down below the water line) and it wouldn't interfere with the steam.

If the water is flowing against the steam, it is called "counter flow" and that can be OK but the pipes must be the right size, and there must be a "drip" which is a vertical section of pipe that drops from the main down to below the water line to the wet return. This lets the water get down to the waterline by avoiding the whole header/supply area.

Based on the estimate language you shared, I believe your boiler was once set up this way. See a photo of that setup here: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1492114/#Comment_1492114

It seems like your setup is now parallel flow, but it has vestiges of counter flow still (that uphill section of main), and that's why it still needs a drip IMO.

tjohnson2342

tech showed up and first thing he said when I mentioned LWCO was that he wants to skim and drain everything add fresh water, basically everything you all mentioned as solutions for the LWCO problem. Will keep you guys posted but at the very least a little bit of my faith in him has been slightly restored.

ethicalpaul

Ask him where the water is going in that first part of the main just before the part where it turns upward!

tjohnson2342

ethicalpaul said:

Ask him where the water is going in that first part of the main just before the part where it turns upward!

He said the boiler is shooting that water up into the supply here 

ethicalpaul

I'm glad he has recognized that, but that's a slightly different question--both are important to consider. I was referring to that section of the main shown at 18 seconds into your tour video

dabrakeman

It looks like counterflow system up to a point and then probably over the "iron" in the video where the main clearly angles down it becomes parallel flow. From that point back to the boiler the pitch would have to continue downward toward the boiler or else water would collect. As Ethicalpaul said there will be alot of condensate water crashing back from the counterflow side to the header at that T.

tjohnson2342

Sorry for the delayed response gentlemen. So my guy came on Tuesday and skimmed for a while. He said that the rep of a conditioner company had been pushing the conditioner on there company and that he now has a bunch of gallons of this in his truck that he's never going to use again. Seems another customer the day before had a similar problem to me with the boiler surging and throwing water up into the main. I find it a little troublesome that they are so easily swayed by a rep to use a product so flippantly but it doesn't seem all that crazy given that they are more of a larger heating and plumbing company and not a smaller ma/pa style business. Also not shocking as I know that's how a lot of businesses operate no matter what industry.

So he skimmed and cleaned, refilled with fresh water. Water in sight glass clear and stable at noticeably higher water level then before after doing this. Fired up the boiler and like magic all the radiators in the house are pumping heat. Took about 20 minutes to go from 65-70 where in the past it had taken hours just to raise a few degrees. I asked him about adding a drip to that one section of the main that is sloped up and he said he didn't think so because there is such little condensate returning back. I didn't press the issue at the moment because I'm trying not to burn bridges here since this company responds very quickly and I know how much of a hassle it will be to find another contractor this time of year. I also understand the tricky spot I put him in of coming in kind of blind not knowing what was there before or how it was setup pre install of the new boiler from company 1, and he is also still "learning" the particulars of my homes system.

So the last 2 days I've been watching that water like a hawk when it kicks on and we haven't had any further issues with rads not heating up, water hammer and to my knowledge LWCO has not tripped once since then. I was down there this morning and I do believe there is still some surging happening because during a heating cycle I saw that water level drop pretty low (not low enough for LWCO but not as high as it sits when the boiler is not firing). I believe that another round of skimming is in need and that the surging needs to be addressed. To confirm the questions of the main pipe pitch, that first part of the main right at the supply is the only part of the main that pitches up, once it goes up into the ceiling and reappears in my laundry room its all a steady pitch back towards the return. Would the surging I'm still noticing be the result of needing further skimming, adding a drip at that section of the main that slopes upwards? Both?

ethicalpaul

At this point for me it would be very hard to say more unless I were there to experience it.

His visit was good, and I don't even mind his answer about the drip...he's probably right about not needing the drip if everything else is working.

The reason I know this is that I have a sight glass on my steam riser and until recently the first part of my main sloped backward toward my boiler a bit. That part of the main sees so much hot steam that any condensation gets converted back to steam (or evaporates) and does not fall back into the boiler. There are no radiator runouts between the boiler and that section of main if I recall correctly.

But note I said "if everything else is working". I still have a concern about the reducer on your header capturing water, and I don't think you responded to my question about the slope of the header, so there could still be some issues at play here.

tjohnson2342

ethicalpaul said:

At this point for me it would be very hard to say more unless I were there to experience it. His visit was good, and I don't even mind his answer about the drip...he's probably right about not needing the drip if everything else is working. The reason I know this is that I have a sight glass on my steam riser and until recently the first part of my main sloped backward toward my boiler a bit. That part of the main sees so much hot steam that any condensation gets converted back to steam (or evaporates) and does not fall back into the boiler. There are no radiator runouts between the boiler and that section of main if I recall correctly. But note I said "if everything else is working". I still have a concern about the reducer on your header capturing water, and I don't think you responded to my question about the slope of the header, so there could still be some issues at play here.

Everything does seem to be working so far, granted it’s only been 2 days. It runs quiet and heats quickly. I’m a bit concerned about that water level dipping down during a heating cycle but perhaps another good skim can help that? Your question on the header though: I’m a bit of a novice would you be so kind to mark up one of those pics pointing out the header and I can check the slope of it and get you an answer. 

Much appreciated. 

Mark N

Tjohnson, you need to determine where the Normal Water Level (NWL) is. Check the manual that came with the boiler. Mark that spot on the boiler jacket, it should be 1/2 to 2/3 the way up the gauge glass. Also, order yourself a copy of "We Got Steam Heat".

ethicalpaul

I already did https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1676336/#Comment_1676336

tjohnson2342

ethicalpaul said:

I already did https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1676336/#Comment_1676336

haha oops. My apologies, I'm beginning to get lost in this thread. Okay excellent, when I get home from work today I will check which way that pipe is sloping and respond back to let you know.

neilc

don't be surprised to need to skim, and drain and refill, once or more yet,

I see the header pitching up as Paul does,
if you were to fix the header,
I think I would add the drip back in while you're wrenching

tjohnson2342

ethicalpaul said:

I already did https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1676336/#Comment_1676336

So it’s tough to tell for sure. I can confidentially say that it is not pitched up towards “A”. If anything it is parallel or pitched slightly downhill towards “A”. 

neilc

then your mason needs to reset his bricks
# smiling faces

ethicalpaul

tjohnson2342 said:

ethicalpaul said:

I already did https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1676336/#Comment_1676336

So it’s tough to tell for sure. I can confidentially say that it is not pitched up towards “A”. If anything it is parallel or pitched slightly downhill towards “A”. 

Did you eyeball it, or use a level? 😅

In addition to the pitch, there is that incorrectly placed reducer that acts like a dam

tjohnson2342

ethicalpaul said:

tjohnson2342 said:

ethicalpaul said:

I already did https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1676336/#Comment_1676336

So it’s tough to tell for sure. I can confidentially say that it is not pitched up towards “A”. If anything it is parallel or pitched slightly downhill towards “A”. 

Did you eyeball it, or use a level? 😅

In addition to the pitch, there is that incorrectly placed reducer that acts like a dam

Both, it’s a bit tough with the level because there is not a straight run of pipe to get a good reading on.

JUGHNE

Is the header sloped to drain to the equalizer?
It would be hard to get slope with only that one 90 out of the boiler riser.
A swing 90 would have let that have slope for sure.

The reducer on the header should be on the vertical drop, as I believe Paul pointed out.

Then the steam main and "return" seem to be at the same level as someone else pointed out......edit: now I see where the main gets its height just past the boiler and then could have enough drop to be a return...


However the steam main start out counter flow, and it looks like there is a run out supply before it becomes parallel flow.
So that first run out condensate would be running back into the boiler.
If so then there would be some benefit connecting the drip back to the return piping.

Maybe I see it wrong.

Now if you have the install book for this boiler does it specify you should use 2 risers from the boiler? You can down load the install book if not available with the boiler.

mattmia2

There is one runout where it connects to a radiator on the main before it turns up, the runout is in the boiler room, right? If that is that case the drip on that section of main is important.

tjohnson2342

mattmia2 said:

There is one runout where it connects to a radiator on the main before it turns up, the runout is in the boiler room, right? If that is that case the drip on that section of main is important.

Correct, if this is what your referring to. There’s a pipe running up to our second floor radiator where that red arrow is. It’s kind of hidden on on this angle but it’s right off the supply before the main runs up over that door. I asked the tech about dripping that section and he said that it’s not necessary. But I have him coming back next week to address the water level and do another round of skimming so I’ll bring it up again.