New mod con boiler

Daveinscranton

Frequent lurker here.  Just thought that I would share my thoughts on a new Triangle Tube Instinct 110.  My HTP Munchkin finally died with a heat exchanger leak after close to 14 years.  If I had been able to find a new heat exchanger for the 80,000 btu model I would have replaced it and kept the HTP.

New Triangle Tube is in.  Primary/secondary piping.  Pex in slab with stone floors.  ICF construction.  2,300 square feet.  Full basement.  I use 1-1/4 copper supply and return that run the length of the house.  9 pex loops.  I adjust the floor with 1/2” ball valves on the pex. Some insulation on the 1-1/4 copper.  Keeps the basement shop 68-70 degrees. Works.  May seem Stone Age.  House is about 71 degrees and even.  One thermostat upstairs.  I do have a basement zone on a separate pump that I made out of leftover 1” copper.  I really don’t use it though.

I have to say that I am impressed with the Triangle Tube Instinct.  Seems well made.  All of the instrumentation that I added to the Munchkin is built into the new boiler.

Set up was fairly easy.  After reading the instructions.  I am sorting out the efficiency vs comfort thing.  Been doing it with a condensate hose and a bucket and watching water supply temperature and return temperature and flue gas temperature.  Outdoor reset doesn’t have much to offer me I think.  Somewhere around 4,500,000 pounds of house.  Big flywheel.  Lots of solar gain on sunny days. I put in a linear taper potentiometer in place of the outdoor reset to dial it in.  Probably could do the same thing with the menu but this is a fast way to limit peak boiler temperature.  Curiously, the resistance of the outdoor reset goes up with decreasing temperature.  

I did talk to the Triangle Tube folks.  Nice people.  I read a lot of unkind reviews on the net of Triangle Tube.  I could not be happier.  Very positive experience.  Lots of room in the cabinet.  Looks easy to get to everything if something breaks.  I am currently running 114 degree supply temps.  Delta T is roughly 20.  

I really like this thing.  The HTP Munchkin was not as intuitive and a bit cramped.  I need to do a combustion analysis.  And will.  Nice of Triangle Tube to build in sampling ports!

Thank you guys for all I have learned here over the years.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Good to here some feed back. The debate continues here about mod con versus cast iron boilers. 14 years out of the Munchkin seems pretty good.

Always nice to here about the boiler mfgs that respond

Daveinscranton

I have no complaints on the Munchkin.  A bit of servicing.  One pressure sensor went in its long life.  Never needed a blower replacement.

The Triangle Tube folks were happy to talk science and why they made what they made and how they did it.  Very encouraging about how to dial it in.  I am tickled pink with the new text screen.  A lot easier to divine what it’s up to.

I debated going with the cast iron old school boilers of my youth.  I grew up with cast iron and Bell and Gossett 100 pumps.  In the end, I needed a boiler. Soon.  This was readily available so it got the nod.  Pretty sure that it will last a good 10 years. Or more.  Hopefully 20.  The Triangle Tube folks said to clean the igniter every couple of years.  And the boiler every four years or so.  I put a temperature probe in the electronics compartment.  Never gets over 86 degrees in my application.  Heat cycles, to extremes, and fancy electronics don’t seem to mix well over years.  I will try the outdoor reset feature at some point.  Triangle Tube didn’t think it would have a lot to offer in this oddball application.  We shall see.  Bucket and hose and propane consumption will tell over time I think.

I am happy!  And warm!  The space heater thing got old quickly.

Daveinscranton

The folks here may be sick of my praise on my new Triangle Tube Instinct 110,000 btu boiler.  Which I understand.

I re piped the house into 2 zones.  Girlfriend likes a warmer bedroom.  Lots of solar gain in the winter but not so much in the bedrooms.

I was able to get burn times to about 15 minutes but I wasn’t happy.  Perfect weather the last couple days for experiments.  20 degrees.  Normal winter day.  I didn’t like all the fire/purge cycles.  Got worse with 2 zones and insulation on my long 1-1/4 copper headers in the basement.  Best I could get was 15 minutes.

Set up the pumps so that both zones run when the living room calls for heat and the bedroom one (only) can kick on with it’s own thermostat, in addition.  I was trying to reduce the number of heating cycles and it appears to be working nicely.

I cut the maximum output to 65% on the Triangle Tube Instinct.  Nice of them to put that feature in the boiler!

My flue gas temperature is really really low.  Supply temp is 116 max with my resistor/potentiometer currently in place of the outdoor reset.

Bucket and hose is how I maximize efficiency. At 65% boiler (assigned) max btu output, the condensate pours out in a steady stream.

I suppose that I should get a life.  But this has been entertaining and a great science experiment.  Girlfriend seems to be happy with toasty warm floors.  I like them too but I am happier when the efficiency is better optimized.

This Triangle Tube Instinct is a great product!  I do appreciate that they took my call on a few questions on day 1 or 2.  Actual outdoor reset experiments will probably be next.

Hot_water_fan

I cut the maximum output to 65% on the Triangle Tube Instinct. Nice of them to put that feature in the boiler!

How low does it go? I don't think you're anywhere near 72,000 Btu at 20 degrees

My flue gas temperature is really really low. Supply temp is 116 max with my resistor/potentiometer currently in place of the outdoor reset.

This can come down too! Do the floor temps seem even with a 20 Delta T?

hot_rod

Does it have a boost function? If so try locking it down to 50% or lower.

Daveinscranton

I am not sure how low it goes.  I will lower it further and see.  I agree, lower is better.  I haven’t lowered it further as it modulates wonderfully.  I believe 12,000 btu is the minimum for this boiler.  8:1 turndown ratio with a minimum possible of 12,000 btu’s.  

My floor temperature delta T has dropped considerably with re piping and pump set up.  Delta T can easily get to 10 degrees or less.  Maybe as low as 5 degrees.

The floors are very even and comfortable.  Been going barefoot inside for years in the winter.

It would be possible to use a higher temperature for the bedroom zone (boost) if I am reading the manual correctly.  Maybe putting that on a separate input and curve with a marginally higher curve assigned.  I think that it would default to that temperature (higher) when the living room (both) called for heat.  Not a big deal in that it would probably not hit its max with those loops added in at the same time.  9 loops of pex total.  3 in the bedroom/bath wing zone and 6 for the rest of the house.

Dialing this in has been fascinating.  Really elegant science built into the boiler.  I love it.

Daveinscranton

BTW.  I been having a hard time figuring out the flag system on this site.  Many apologies if I managed to hit a disagree or some such thing.  Error in me trying to get into the computer age.

jad3675

Daveinscranton said:

After reading the instructions.  I am sorting out the efficiency vs comfort thing.  Been doing it with a condensate hose and a bucket and watching water supply temperature and return temperature and flue gas temperature.

I have an Instinct 110 also. The boiler has modbus, so with a simple $12 adapter, a raspberry pi and a bit of code you can graph all that data.

Daveinscranton

Many thanks!  The bottom is about 12,000 btu.  I set it to 45% which I believe is 45% of (102,000 output minus the minimum of 12,000)  or about 12,000 + 40,000 or so.    Zero to 100% is possible.

I lowered the max water temperature to 114 with my potentiometer set up.  The screen reads this as 32 degrees outside.

The boost function is intriguing.  It has CH1 and CH2 inputs for separate thermostats and separate curves.  I was hoping to save one of them for my copper loop in the basement.  Basement is now at 65 degrees after adding insulation to my long copper headers.  There would be several ways to have a higher temperature for my shop heat (if needed) it seems.  Actually a sweater is not a terrible solution.  The lights warm it up in a few hours as it is.  Hard to believe but true.

Flue temp is now 100 degrees.  Steady stream of condensate.  It does not drip condensate.  

Hot_water_fan

I'd go even further! Maybe 100 max?

The efficiencies increase sharply as return temps dip below the condensing temp, as you know. They also increase as the modulation is lower - i.e. 120 degree return at max fire is less efficient than 120 degree return at 10% fire. Anyway, you're on the right path. If it's 32 outside, this is probably 50% of your design day heat loss in Scranton, so you should be constantly running. If it's still cycling today, your heat loss is probably right around 20k Btu, which could very well be the case considering half of the house sqft is in the basement, which is keep at a lower temperature. Plus the construction seems efficient.

Daveinscranton

Thanks!  I need some colder and cloudy weather to experiment.  32 and sunny at present.  Lots of solar gain.  Living room is 75 degrees.  Mostly on the sun at present.

15 years ago I tried a 4,500 watt electric hot water tank as an experiment.  It did work, mostly.  A bit of help occasionally from the wood stove in the basement if things got really bad.  Had to keep an eye on the weather channel and leave the tank on if bad weather was coming.  Max temperature in the house was about 68 degrees in the dead of winter as I recall.  I needed a quick solution at the time and didn’t have a proper boiler handy or the time to put it in.  The HTP Munchkin came along shortly thereafter.  It was like saying goodbye to an old friend.  However, the Triangle Tube and I appear to have bonded quickly.

Daveinscranton

I will look into the Raspberry pi and the mod bus.  Really hadn’t occurred to me.  Slick way to do it!

Hot_water_fan

The HTP Munchkin came along shortly thereafter. It was like saying goodbye to an old friend. However, the Triangle Tube and I appear to have bonded quickly.

Interested to see fuel usage between the Munchkin and the Instinct!

WMno57

Daveinscranton said:

BTW.  I been having a hard time figuring out the flag system on this site.  Many apologies if I managed to hit a disagree or some such thing.  Error in me trying to get into the computer age.

I'm one of those people that has to press all the buttons, just to see what will happen. Your post got me thinking, is it possible to change a flag/tag whatever its called? So, I tried it out. I was hoping I could give multiple tags to one post, that would be a fun way to annoy people.
Alas, the forum software is smarter than that, you can only assign one tag to a post. If you assign a tag, then click on another tag, the first tag goes away. Also, each tag is a toggle. If you click a tag, then later click the same tag again, it goes away.
Try it out. Feel free to give this post any tag you like, then change it. I will not be offended.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Thanks, @WMno57.

Daveinscranton

Thank you for the advice!  

I now have my instrumentation back on.  Temperature sensors on piping in addition to the data provided by the Triangle Tube Instinct 110 boiler.

The colder weather has provided perfect opportunities to sort this out a bit further.  I tried 20% which is actually the 13,750 minimum btu plus 20% of the difference from max minus min, or total 33,000 possible input btu’s.  Worked fine during the day which was 21 degrees actual outdoor temperature.  It got a bit dicey after the sun went down and outside temp was 18 degrees. 15 mph northwest wind.  House was still 72 degrees and essentially no cycling, on mostly.  I bumped it up to 35% which is max input 47,000 btu’s.  12 degrees when I got up.  House is 72 degrees.  Supply is 98 degrees.  Boiler Return is 88 degrees.  House return is also 88 degrees so it appears that all house return is going into the boiler (lowers flue temperature).  Flue reads 96 degrees.  It appears that run times are sometimes 30 minutes or more in the dead of night.

The actual set point of the ODR would be 118 on the current curve, if I was using ODR.  The boiler is not modulating when the whole house is calling for heat, nor should it, at this choked down setting.  It does modulate on bedrooms only.  I think that I am close.  I will wire in the ODR today I think.  ICF and stone so 18” thick walls.

So 2,300 square feet of living space and a 2,300 square foot shop.  Shop is staying 66 degrees with no added heat.  Haven’t hooked up that loop yet but probably will.

Colder weather is coming so we shall see if any other adjustments are needed in coming days.  The science is fascinating.  My friends don’t understand my affliction.  To them, a house is warm or cold.  And only care if it is cold.

Many thanks!

hot_rod

As you are discovering the amount of observing and tweaking you do related to the performance and efficiency you’ve will see

ODR will GM have both advantages and disadvantages. If you have high mass, expect some temperature over-runs

The building doesn’t necessarily need higher SWT just because outdoor ambient is dropping 

Indoor feedback with ODR may be the best approach with high mass, it takes into consideration the internal gains, in a super insulated building that can be a big deal.

Daveinscranton

It may be that max fire rate will take care of the low end of the curve and that ODR will take care of the warm weather part of the curve.  So far, supply temperature can’t get to the boiler set point at these low max fire settings in cold weather.  Which I believe to be good.  My potentiometer set up, mimicking ODR, has been instructive in figuring out what the ODR would have told the boiler max supply temperature could be.

I have terrific solar gain and high mass. A simple room air thermostat served me well with the old HTP Munchkin.

I may look into more sophisticated controls.  I think that the enormous thermal mass has largely been my friend.  Management of solar gain in the summer has been interesting and is a different topic.

I am appreciative of all the information available on this site.  Tremendous help over the last 15 years.  

Hot_water_fan

It appears that run times are sometimes 30 minutes or more in the dead of night.

Well on your way! They should be hours long.

So 2,300 square feet of living space and a 2,300 square foot shop.

I misread this - I thought it was 2,300 total. Even better for cycling.

Daveinscranton

I am certain that there are better ways to do this.  I was looking at my junk box of electronic parts.  Tired of the couple short cycles in the morning and late afternoon.  They were occasionally about 6 minutes.   Cranking the boiler down to 31% max output seems to be a sweet spot for a design day with 4,600 square feet of heated space.

I think that the thermostat I am using has insufficient hysteresis.  I added a 0-999 second timer as a one shot timer and a 12 volt dc dpdt relay to yield a 15 minute minimum cycle length.  

So I have shortest burn time set at 15 minutes with an override for the boiler to stay on if the thermostat is not satisfied.  I added a momentary switch to test the one shot timer trigger.  I left it in the circuit just because, like if the front door is open.

 If I had to buy the parts, I think the outlay would have been minimal.  Anyway, it works, and I am happy and I had a good time tossing it together.

Mad Dog_2

Dave. How's about some pictures 📷 🤔.  Scranton is a nice town. Do you get your paper at Dunder Mifflin?   Mad Dog 🐕 

Daveinscranton

Daveinscranton

First photo is of the tossed together experiment to combat a short cycle.  Works.  I have to make it look nice.

Second photo is of the Triangle Tube Instinct 110.  Boiler seems happy.  It was placed where it would fit.  I tried to use up spare parts.  

hot_rod

Lot of electronics in that room. I can understand the analog clocks And Winters gauge.

Daveinscranton

I felt better knowing what the boiler was up to.  Probably makes zero sense to do it.  The diagnostics/monitoring in the unit were good but not granular enough for me.  I lack the computer skills to do it other ways so I went with clocks and counters and thermometers.  And some analog meters and gauges.