Burnham KIN-5

Redvan

Hello,
New to this site and hers's why …

I had the above named boiler installed in 2005. There's been no work done to it since except the replacement of two radiators. One when the kitchen was redone and the other was a re-installed radiator that had been removed years prior. (The new kitchen radiator has the pipe come in from the bottom, rather than the side, in about the middle and ever since install, it sounds like there are steel balls rolling around in it when the heat is coming up.)

When the boiler was installed, I was told to drain a bucket of water from a valve on the side once a week. Did this for some time but then forgot about it. The water was always dirty and rusty.

Now, there is a list of issues:

Site glass shows rust colored water that moves up and down when boiling. Sometimes it gets very low causing the system to add water. Then when the boiler cools, the site glass level goes up and stays there. Occasionally, it's out of the site glass and I have to drain water to get it to come back into view.

When the heats coming up, there's a banging, hammering sound through the system and I can hear gurgling in the main. (I have discovered that if the site glass level is very high so is the noise level.)

The main is in a finished portion of the basement and there are no hangers to support it.

On the return line from the main, not too far from the boiler, there is an air vent that occasionally spits rusty water. This has been replaced at some point because I found an older one on a framing cross member near the return pipe.

The wife contacted a plumber who said the boiler was surging and recommended adding a chemical to stop the surging.

I looked into this 'surging' condition and it seems to me that adding a chemical is a quick fix to the symptom but not a solution to the problem.

What should I really do to remedy these issues?

Mike.

Hap_Hazzard

Rusty water tend to boil more violently than clean water, but you may also have an accumulation of oily surface contaminants that have built up over the years, as these are not removed by draining water from the bottom. The best way to address this is to flush and skim the boiler. There are chemicals available that help to flush rust and scale, and some people add washing soda for skimming, but in general you shouldn't leave any chemicals in the water unless they're needed to adjust the pH. Additives that contain silicone are especially worth avoiding.

Dan has an article on Water Quality in Steam Heating Systems, including tips on cleaning and skimming a boiler.

If you don't feel super confident about doing this yourself, It's often a good idea to hire a professional to do it the first time, especially one who's amenable to letting you watch, learn and ask lots of questions. Skimming is a time-consuming process, so there's plenty of time for questions, and most steam men who know their stuff are happy to share. You can use the Find a Contractor link to find someone near you.

Where are you located?

SlamDunk

https://youtu.be/UES7BCmBups

You could simply drain, replace with fresh and fire boiler to boil off oxygen. Attached video is surging caused by dirty water

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Redvan

If you install a boiler in 2005 and do nothing to it what do you expect? Would a car bought in 2005 still be running in 2021 without ANY service? I doubt it.

Follow the instructions above to skim the boiler. Use 1 lb of TSP/50 gallons of boiler water. And get someone in their to service and clean it.

The poor thing is probably ready to cash it in.

neilc

everything everyone else said,
and,
post pictures,
of the boiler, one shot floor to ceiling,
another of the controls and sightglass,
and of those radiators,

So no one has cleaned the pigtail since 2005?
what pressure do you see on the gage when the boiler is firing?

Redvan

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@Redvan

If you install a boiler in 2005 and do nothing to it what do you expect? Would a car bought in 2005 still be running in 2021 without ANY service? I doubt it.

Follow the instructions above to skim the boiler. Use 1 lb of TSP/50 gallons of boiler water. And get someone in their to service and clean it.

The poor thing is probably ready to cash it in.

I am not a plumber nor a boiler specialist, just a home owner whose boiler failed in 2005 and when it was replaced, did what I was told to do. They didn't say anything about future maintenance or changing the oil, tires and wipers.

Redvan

WOW, didn't expect so many responses so quickly.

Hap_Hazard,
I will take your approach and get a professional in to clean it out. Never heard of skimming a boiler and although I'm handy, this is out of my comfort zone.

Thank you for your advise.

Redvan

Hap_Hazzard said:

Rusty water tend to boil more violently than clean water, but you may also have an accumulation of oily surface contaminants that have built up over the years, as these are not removed by draining water from the bottom. The best way to address this is to flush and skim the boiler. There are chemicals available that help to flush rust and scale, and some people add washing soda for skimming, but in general you shouldn't leave any chemicals in the water unless they're needed to adjust the pH. Additives that contain silicone are especially worth avoiding.

Dan has an article on Water Quality in Steam Heating Systems, including tips on cleaning and skimming a boiler.

If you don't feel super confident about doing this yourself, It's often a good idea to hire a professional to do it the first time, especially one who's amenable to letting you watch, learn and ask lots of questions. Skimming is a time-consuming process, so there's plenty of time for questions, and most steam men who know their stuff are happy to share. You can use the Find a Contractor link to find someone near you.

Where are you located?

Queens, NY

Redvan

neilc said:

everything everyone else said,
and,
post pictures,
of the boiler, one shot floor to ceiling,
another of the controls and sightglass,
and of those radiators,

So no one has cleaned the pigtail since 2005?
what pressure do you see on the gage when the boiler is firing?

Until I started looking into this issue online, I didn't know what a pigtail was but now I do and no, it's never been cleaned.

As for the pressure, between 5-8 psi

Ironman

There several good steam contractors in your area.

Check the contractor locator above.

neilc

so that pigtail / high pressure needs attention asap,
along with confirming all other safeties are in working order,

Are you handy and taking this on yourself?
or,
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/

Redvan

neilc said:

so that pigtail / high pressure needs attention asap,
along with confirming all other safeties are in working order,

Are you handy and taking this on yourself?
or,
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/

I'm very handy and love steam engines, both as in trains and models, and I know what can happen when steam gets angry. I'm leaving this to a professional. I searched using the link and found several in my area. One will be called tomorrow.

Redvan

I must say that I'm very impressed by the responses (except one) and the level of advise given. Thank you very much for your time and knowledge today.

Redvan

I'm back with more information....

I had a plumber here to re-route a gas line for my stove several days ago and we had a deep conversation about my boiler.

We checked all the radiator valves to be sure they were all fully open - which they were.
We checked that all the radiators had an incline towards the valve and those that did not, we added a block of wood to the far end so they sloped towards the value end to drain any condensate that may be in the radiator. He explained how hot steam coming in contact with cold condensate causes banging in the radiators. (one of my issues)
lastly, every radiator has an air vent - which they all did.

We discussed the surging (another one of my issues) and he added Surgemax through the relief value on the side of the boiler to help with that and said it would take a few cycles to get the most out of it.

It's been a few days and it's been fairly quiet except for this morning.
The 2nd floor bedroom radiator air vent never shuts off and when I took a look at it, there was water vapor spitting out of it and it looked rusty. I also saw that there was a screw cap with a tiny hole on top of the air value. I looked at other radiators in the house and, except for the new kitchen radiator, every other radiator has a similar screw cap but with different size holes and different numbers stamped into the cap.

I do not understand this numbering and hole sizing. I have attached a drawing of the system and the numbers on each air vent cap for each radiator.

Additionally, the bathroom radiator is a Slant Fin style radiator and the air valve and cap are rusty, like water has been coming out of it like the bedroom air valve.
Also,1st floor bedroom and living room air values are also rusty like the others.

I suspect the rusty ones are not working and need to be replaced but I want to know first what the numbers on the air valves mean.

I also included an image of the new kitchen radiator.

Hap_Hazzard

What the numbers mean depends on the brand. The numbers you show in the picture look like those used by both Gorton and Jacobus Maid-o-Mist, but the vent attached to the kitchen radiator looks like a Dole 1933 or Hoffman 40. 1933 & 40 are just model numbers. You need to look them up in their catalogs (attached) to get the specs, unless you're one of our professionals who could tell you from memory.

The Gorton/Maid-o-Mist #4, #5, #6, C and D vents are all the same basic model: a ⅛" angle or ¼" straight radiator vent. The numbers are related to the diameter of the vent port.

#4    .040"
#5    .070"
#6    .0935"
  C    .1285"
  D    .185"

The Dole 1933 and Hoffman 40 have a .0625" vent port.

The diameter of the vent port determines the venting rate. The bigger the hole, the faster the air escapes, and the faster the air escapes, the faster the steam can fill the radiator.

There are some other differences in these vents. The Dole and Hoffman vents have a capsule containing an alcohol that flashes to vapor in the presence of steam, causing it to expand and force a pin into the vent port. The Maid-o-Mist and Gorton vents use a curved bimetal strip that bends in the presence of steam and pushes the float against the opening to the vent port. The Gorton is generally considered to be of higher quality than the Maid-o-Mist, but the Maid-o-Mist vents have interchangeable vent ports that allow for ease of experimentation when balancing a system.

Redvan

Hap_Hazzard,
It seems to me, based on what I have read, that my Maid-o-Mist air valves are not set correctly because I read that there are several factors determining opening size.
1. Air valve openings should be based on radiator size and valve opening also determines how hot the radiator gets.
2. Room with the thermostat should have a small valve opening whereas radiators further away should have a larger openings.
3. Valve openings should be based on distance from the boiler and thermostat.

The thermostat is in the 1st floor bedroom and that radiator has a #6 Maid-o-Mist. This I believe should be a #1 or #2 to keep pressure in the main so it gets to the other radiators. Having such a large number in that room is probably why the boiler goes on and off several times during a heating cycle.
The living room should be a #2 or #3 not a #6.
The dinning room and bathroom #4 are probably ok but could be smaller I think.
The 2nd floor bedroom C is good since it's the farthest away from both the boiler and thermostat.

I also do not like that several of the Maid-o-mist values have rust stains down the sides of the valve bodies. I would like to replace these unless this is normal?

KC_Jones

The numbers do not work as you suggest.

A #1 vent is a larger main vent, which has the same capacity as a D radiator vent
A #2 vent is a very large main vent and has about 3x the capacity of the #1 main vent.

A #4 (in that style of vent) is the slowest vent you can get. If you switch to another brand with different sizing you can get a little slower if necessary. The radiator vent sizes, from smallest to largest are 4,5,6,C,D.

Your items 1-3
1. This is partially true. The larger opening will get the radiator hotter faster, but the size of the radiator isn't the only factor.
2. Agreed for the most part, though there are exceptions.
3. It should also be based on radiator size, to room heat loss and how warm or cold you want that particular room.

There really aren't hard and fast rules for vent sizing, it's a tuning process for each home. The basic starting point is as you say. For example, the biggest vent in my house is on the smallest radiator, and my two biggest radiators not only vent slowly, but have TRV's on them to prevent overheating.

Since we are having a venting discussion, all balancing and venting discussion start in the basement. How much main venting do you currently have? You need to get main venting correct before even thinking about the radiator vents.

If you let us know how long and what size your mains are, we can recommend the proper main venting. I can almost guarantee you don't have enough.

Hap_Hazzard

The smallest vent available from Maid-o-Mist or Gorton, for reasons unknown, is a #4. They both make a #1, but this is a main vent with the same size port as the D radiator vent, but with a ¾" male/½" female thread. Gorton makes a #2, but this is a completely different model with roughly three times the venting capacity of the #1 and a ½" thread, also for main venting.

The radiator in my living room, where the thermostat is also located, is a 25" 24-section 6-tube monster. It is also the closest radiator to the boiler. It has a #4 vent, and that seems slow enough to allow the rest of the house to get heat.

Try putting the #4 in the living room and Cs or Ds in the most remote radiators. If you don't have any Cs or Ds, try the 6. It just might be enough. Sometimes the D is a bit too much even for very distant radiators because, once the steam gets there, it shoots through the radiator and closes the vent without pushing all the air ahead of it, and you only get partial heating.

To give every radiator a fair chance, the main venting should be fast enough to let it fill with steam within a few seconds after the risers get hot. Then the radiator vents only have to deal with the runout and the radiator itself.

Redvan

KC_Jones,
I see no vent on the main but there is a vent on the return line where it drops to the floor next to the boiler.

The main coming out of the boiler look's to be 2 1/2" but could be 3". Hard to say with the insulation on but at an exposed fitting, the diameter is 3 1/2" where the insulation begins so it's probably 3".

Since this boiler was a replacement, they put it in a likely location out of the way and piped to the existing main.

The straight run main is 22' if including the piping from the boiler to the main it's another 11'

Hap_Hazzard

Redvan said:

KC_Jones,
I see no vent on the main but there is a vent on the return line where it drops to the floor next to the boiler.

That would be your main vent. In systems with dry returns, they always put them right where you see them. What vent did they put there?

3.5" is the OD of 3" schedule 40 pipe. The ID is 3.068", so the cross-sectional area (πr²) is 4.82in². Multiply this by the length, but first, add 6½' to the length for every 90° elbow in the main. That's the volume of air you need to vent.

delcrossv

@Hap_Hazzard That's additional 6 1/2' per ell is equivalent length for pressure drop, not real volume. I think you can ignore fittings for venting volume calculations.

Hap_Hazzard

delcrossv said:

@Hap_Hazzard That's additional 6 1/2' per ell is equivalent length for pressure drop, not real volume. I think you can ignore fittings for venting volume calculations.

Thanks. I didn't know that. I guess I thought the added friction slowed down the steam.

delcrossv

The time is fixed by removing the vent and measuring the time for steam to get to the open vent pipe. Say it's 2 minutes. So the rate you have to vent is pi x r squared (in sq ft) x length divided by 2 minutes. That's your maximum CFM to pick mains vents. No equivalent lengths needed.

Redvan

There is no size value on the main vent, no writing, nothing at all.

Additionally, the SurgeMax that was added doesn't seem to be helping with the surging. When the boiler goes on, the water level in the site glass drops completely out of sight and the banging has gotten worse. (It's so loud, it scared the cat off the cat tower under one of the branch steam pipes in the basement. Sounds like a shotgun.) While the boiler is running, the auto water feed goes off filling the boiler. After the boiler shuts down, the water in the sight glass goes out of sight again but in the opposite direction and the next time the boiler cycles, the banging is incredible so, I drain some water out and that quiets it but then the routine starts over.

I've raised the far ends of every radiator in the house so condensate drains but I can hear gurgling in the pipes in the basement. How do I drain this water and stop this crazy routine?

delcrossv

First the boiler needs to be flushed then skimmed. Once you know the boiler is clean that should address the surging. That may also address the water feeder adding water. Can you post pictures of the boiler including all the near boiler piping?
You may have a piping issue that's making things worse

Hap_Hazzard

Redvan said:

There is no size value on the main vent, no writing, nothing at all.

If you can post a picture of it, someone will probably recognize it.

neilc

also post a picture of where that pipe is scaring the cat,
a distant view of where that hammer is, lengthwise of the pipe
is there a wet return there? maybe it's not draining,

Redvan

This is the beginning of the branch line that has the shotgun sound.

This is the remainder of the branch line (first thing the wife wanted was to hide "that ugly pipe" so I put up the recessed lighting.) The post it note (over on the right) is where it goes upstairs into the living room. This is the line I hear the gurgling and shot gun sounds. The cat tower is in the corner just to the right of the post it note.. Further on the right, behind the wall, I sometimes hear banging but not always.

Piping above the boiler.

The only vent I can find and it's on the return. As you can see, it spits water and rattles occasionally.

The return line drops to the floor and then over to the boiler where it joins the piping on the control side of the boiler.

The sight glass and gauges.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Look at that pipe in comparison to the ceiling. It's close to being level. Not enough pitch.

I would look at trying to raise the end going to the radiator. You can't do much at the supply end it already has a pretty short nipple between the 45 and the tee

neilc

the spitting vent,
get a long nipple and pipe up to the ceiling,
get a new, much larger vent,

the Ptrol settings are not correct,
post a clearer picture of the Ptrol,

There's no way you should be at 7~8 psi,
pigtail is likely clogged,
need to be able to blow back thru pigtail, all the way into the boiler,
so Ptrol can see the boiler pressure,
prime the pigtail with 1/4 cup water when you reassemble Ptrol to it,

Hap_Hazzard

Redvan said:

The only vent I can find and it's on the return. As you can see, it spits water and rattles occasionally.

That location is okay, but it should be mounted on a 6–10" nipple, as @neilc said. This will keep it from spitting. You'll also want a bigger vent. This is a US Air Valve 883. They had the model number printed on the body instead of engraved, so it probably rubbed off. They are ubiquitous because they're the only main vent sold at the orange bucket stores, but they think it's a radiator vent. (To be fair, it really is a radiator vent, but it has main vent threads.)

The vent port is only about 3/32". That's about half the size of a Gorton #1. You might want a Gorton #2, which is three times the size of a Gorton #1, but you need to measure your mains, or time them, and figure out what you need on each main.

Redvan

These images were taken between cycles. Notice the sight glass is full to the top. The water in the sight glass is usually around the black mark which is just above the auto fill sensor. When cycling, the sight glass is empty. Also, the pressure gauge is never at zero when the sight glass level is above it.

Redvan

While cycling, empty sight glass...

JUGHNE

The only time the 0-30 PSI gauge works is when it shows too high of a pressure.
And this is what you have, you should set the pressure control as low as it will go and still work.
And has the pigtail been cleaned?

Your last picture shows 9 PSI, and the gauge is untrustworthy besides, could be more. If it gets to an actual 15, your relief valve will open.
Your operating pressures can wreck any vents you might have.
Set so you never exceed 2 PSI, the boiler will cycle a lot but that may mean you need more main venting.


I have a new boiler set up on a 2 pipe system in a school which is heating with 4 ounces of pressure. The pressure control never comes into play.
Over 350' of pipe connected.

A church 1 pipe system running on 12 ounces feeding over 200' of pipe.

Hap_Hazzard

Redvan said:

These images were taken between cycles. Notice the sight glass is full to the top. The water in the sight glass is usually around the black mark which is just above the auto fill sensor. When cycling, the sight glass is empty. Also, the pressure gauge is never at zero when the sight glass level is above it.

Redvan said:

While cycling, empty sight glass...

That kind of fluctuation in your water level is going to kill your boiler.

Why is it still running when the water level is clearly below the LWCO?

Redvan

Hap_Hazzard said:

These images were taken between cycles. Notice the sight glass is full to the top. The water in the sight glass is usually around the black mark which is just above the auto fill sensor. When cycling, the sight glass is empty. Also, the pressure gauge is never at zero when the sight glass level is above it.

While cycling, empty sight glass...

That kind of fluctuation in your water level is going to kill your boiler. Why is it still running when the water level is clearly below the LWCO?

Right, why is it still running when the water level is so low? 

Is something not working properly?

I was told there were many safety features but apparently they're not working so what do I do now? 

KC_Jones

If that probe is not shutting the boiler down it's either broken, or needs cleaned/serviced. This is a safety that protects you and the boiler, dry firing would not be good. Items like this should be getting annual testing and or service.

I fully understand when this was installed they didn't tell you any of this, and honestly shame on them. The reality is, anything mechanical in your world needs preventive maintenance, if they don't tell you, you should ask....always. If they don't know, that's honestly, scary. That or they just want you to run it into the ground so they can get money replacing it again.

Redvan

So, now it's time to call someone and say "I need an annual checkup of my boiler" or is there something specific I need to say? 

Remember, I'm not a plumber in any sense and I did what I was told to do back then and now here I am. 

Hap_Hazzard

Redvan said:

Right, why is it still running when the water level is so low?

Is something not working properly?

I was told there were many safety features but apparently they're not working so what do I do now?

Does the LWCO shut it off eventually, or not at all?

If it shuts down eventually, it's probably delayed because the water is boiling too violently or foaming (or both) making it difficult for the LWCO to sense the true water level.

If it's not shutting down at all, it's either defective or installed incorrectly. A common mistake is using PTFE tape on the probe threads. PTFE can insulate the probe from the boiler tapping. Or it could be wired wrong.

Hap_Hazzard

Redvan said:

So, now it's time to call someone and say "I need an annual checkup of my boiler" or is there something specific I need to say? 

Remember, I'm not a plumber in any sense and I did what I was told to do back then and now here I am.

I'd tell them about the trouble you're having without going into too much detail. If they think it's just a checkup they'll probably just send a kid with a gas analyzer and a bottle of Squick. You need a good troubleshooter with steam expertise.

neilc

nah, this is more a remedial steam boiler cleaning and service,

on a cool boiler,
dump all that "treated" green water,
from the returns and hartford also,
refill and fire,
repeat a time or 2,

the LWCO and probe,
this is your primary safety,
Probe needs cleaning, NOW, it is gunked up, and shorting, showing water where it isn't,
must clean probe, NOW,
if you push the test button, will that shut off the firing boiler?
NO TAPE ON THE PROBE THREADS, USE ONLY Paste

and the Pigtail, ( 9 psi ? ! )
needs cleaning, NOW, it is gunked up,
must clean pigtail, NOW,

the flooding, and disappearing siteglass,
this may fix itself with normal water,
but we need boiler pictures as below,

or,
and this should happen anyways
check both upper and lower valves that they are free and clear back into the boiler,
back off the packing(s), and turn out the valve stem(s),
use one of the glass protection rods and ream all the way into the boiler,
be prepared for dirty, and or HOT, water,
refill the cool boiler before reassembling the glass valves,
let boiler water flush out thru the lower valve, ream a little, then reassemble,
now fill to the upper valve, same same,
while the boiler is this full, and with both valves open to the glass, see if upper or lower glass packing is leaking at all, tighten gently, just so any drippage, stops,

before firing,
let the water drop to bottom of siteglass,
or below LWCO probe level,
LWCO should show red light,
try to fire with red light,
It Better Not Fire,
or you need LWCO replaced,

the Ptrol setting are ok for now,
we can come back to this,
add a low pressure, 0-3, or 0-5, gage on a tee, above the Pigtail

I don't think we've seen a distant picture of the boiler yet,
floor to ceiling, showing the piping,
from a couple angles, please,