Veissman uses less oil?

Hanna61

Thanks for your input on the following as this is not my realm (quite clueless!). And, I learn so much from you folks.

So two things:

1. - A contractor giving me an estimate said that a new Veissman oil boiler because of its triple pass design, will use less oil than other boilers of the same efficiency. So my oil bill for the winter will greatly decrease. I'm not following this. Please explain this to me.

2. - Then two different service techs from two difference companies, said they wouldn't spend the extra money on a Veissman. On the down low, each told me they get as many calls on Veissman units than Peerless units they also sell, so they didn't think one performed better than the other overall. Any thoughts?

Thanks again!

PS: My current Peerless is 28 years old.

STEVEusaPA

Properly sized, designed and commissioned boiler will save you the most money. Any triple pass would be better than your old Peerless. And keeping them clean and properly tuned is the best thing you can do.
You'll even save more with an Energy Kinetics.
Viessman is a fine boiler.
In general you'd want to avoid equipment that isn't popular in your area if it has special, hard to get parts, or local techs aren't familiar with them. EK does have a proprietary control and some have a unique aquastat, but in both cases the boiler can be put back into service with standard parts until replacements are obtained-which in their case is pretty fast.
And again, properly cleaned and tuned burners, proper filtration, proper combustion air, and they rarely break down.
Is their an actual problem with your current boiler? And do you use it for domestic hot water?

Jamie Hall

Your number 1 guy is blowing smoke. If two boilers have about the same efficiency, they will use about the same amount of oil. And the differences in modern boilers -- including your nice old Peerless -- are relatively minor. Perhaps less than 3 or 4 percent (certainly not greatly!) and are actually less than the difference which a qualified tech. can make with a good tuneup.

On the second, hard to say -- the Viessman is a good boiler. Is it worth the extra money? I'm not so sure...

EdTheHeaterMan

See EDIT Below

I have to say that a brand name will not use any more or less oil any other brand name if the ratings and efficiencies are identical. That said, no two models of equipment are exactly identical. The difference in the engineering will cause subtle differences in operation.

When offering Oil Heat and Gas Heat equipment to a prospective homeowner interested in converting from one fuel to another I will tell them of my experience of swapping out a coal conversion boiler with a gas burner, will use much more fuel than a modern package oil fired boiler. This means that Oil is a lower cost to heat your home than gas. But back in the day there were more Oil Fired Coal Conversions that were replaced by packabe gas boilers. In this case the gas heat was the lower cost option compared to OIL.

Do you really think the fuel made the difference? I know that it was the inefficiency of the converted coal boiler compared to the higher efficiency of the package replacement boiler that made the difference.

I would say that @STEVEusaPA has good advise. Don't pay extra for a name brand or a type of fuel or a type of material (cast iron, steel, aluminum) Go with a contractor that knows what he is doing. The installer can make or break the way the equipment will perform. There is a FIND A CONTRACTOR link here that may be of help in finding someone better qualified to get the job done right.

Good Luck with your project

Mr. Ed

PS Viessman, Buderus, Energy Kinetics, and many others are very good products.

EDIT:

What is wrong with the existing Peerless Boiler? leaking? Constant service issues? using too much fuel?
In 28 years there have not been any tremendous technological changes in Oil Heat that would make a big difference in your fuel consumption. If your existing boiler is within a reasonable size (not more that 1-2/3 oversized) I would think that a good oil heat specialist could make your existing boiler operate cleanly, efficiently and dependably with proper service, maintenance and care.

Robert O'Brien

The enemy is idle loss, a tankless coil boiler of any type will be much less efficient than a properly installed triple pass or EK. AFUE is almost meaningless, it works well for furnaces but not for combined heat/DHW systems as most oil boilers are.

https://energykinetics.com/afue/

Hanna61

My current oil burner is spitting water. And, I do have it serviced annually. Not oil heated water off it.

Energy kinetics dealers are over an hour away from my small town.

Thanks everyone.

HVACNUT

Any 3 pass boiler will be more efficient than a boiler with a pin type heat exchanger like the Peerless WBV.
What burner are they offering with the Viessmann?
Did anyone do a proper heat loss calculation? 

Hanna61

HVACNUT said:

Any 3 pass boiler will be more efficient than a boiler with a pin type heat exchanger like the Peerless WBV.
What burner are they offering with the Viessmann?
Did anyone do a proper heat loss calculation? 

Looking at the quote:

1 - Viessmann Vitorond 100 model VR-1 with Riello oil burner - AFUE rating 87%

2 - No heat loss calculation done as far as I can tell. What would that look like exactly? Maybe it was done, and I was simply unaware.

And he included as part of the quote that a HTP MSSU45 indirect fired water heater can be added to system for such and such..... Didn't necessarily ask him for this or discussed this at all during the time he was looking at the system.

The Peerless quote is a WBV with 87% too with a Riello too.

GW

How many Sq Ft is the home? Smaller homes- heat loss calc is a waste of time with  most oil boilers. 

Vitorond 100 with Riello- what parts are hard to find? Wow people will say anything to get a sale 😀

Jamie Hall

Just keep in mind that efficiency in that range is, in my humble opinion, a stunningly poor point to make a choice on. To illustrate. Let us suppose that boiler A has a label efficiency of 84%. Boiler B has a label efficiency of 87%. Now further, let us suppose that you are a more or less normal size house, and burn 1,000 gallons of oil a year -- or would, in Boiler A, with that miserable 84% efficiency. Boiler B, with it's wonderful 87% efficiency would burn 965 gallons of oil for the same heat.

A whopping 35 gallons savings!

Um...

It is far more important that the boiler is correctly sized for the application and that it is installed by someone who really knows what he or she is doing and will stand behind their work and be there for maintenance, and that parts and maintenance are easily available.

An indirect, by the way, is very much the best way to go for your domestic hot water...

Robert O'Brien

Jamie Hall said:

Just keep in mind that efficiency in that range is, in my humble opinion, a stunningly poor point to make a choice on. To illustrate. Let us suppose that boiler A has a label efficiency of 84%. Boiler B has a label efficiency of 87%. Now further, let us suppose that you are a more or less normal size house, and burn 1,000 gallons of oil a year -- or would, in Boiler A, with that miserable 84% efficiency. Boiler B, with it's wonderful 87% efficiency would burn 965 gallons of oil for the same heat. A whopping 35 gallons savings! Um... It is far more important that the boiler is correctly sized for the application and that it is installed by someone who really knows what he or she is doing and will stand behind their work and be there for maintenance, and that parts and maintenance are easily available. An indirect, by the way, is very much the best way to go for your domestic hot water...

Not true,boilers in integrated systems with identical AFUE ratings can have very different real world efficiency. Idle loss and control strategy are key.

pecmsg

Hanna61 said:

HVACNUT said:

Any 3 pass boiler will be more efficient than a boiler with a pin type heat exchanger like the Peerless WBV.
What burner are they offering with the Viessmann?
Did anyone do a proper heat loss calculation? 

Looking at the quote:

1 - Viessmann Vitorond 100 model VR-1 with Riello oil burner - AFUE rating 87%

2 - No heat loss calculation done as far as I can tell. What would that look like exactly? Maybe it was done, and I was simply unaware.

And he included as part of the quote that a HTP MSSU45 indirect fired water heater can be added to system for such and such..... Didn't necessarily ask him for this or discussed this at all during the time he was looking at the system.

The Peerless quote is a WBV with 87% too with a Riello too.

Without a Heat Load / Loss there guessing.

When I hear a contractor say "It will pay for itself within X years" Walk away. There is ZERO return on investment unless the original equipment is extremely old and in the 40% category.

Is the Veissman good? When installed buy a qualified contractor Yes its is a great boiler, when installed buy a Unqualified contractor......well I think you get my point.
Your not buying a car assembled in a factory in a controlled environment. Your getting several box's delivered to you home that must be adapted to your unique home in all kinds of weather and environments!

Concentrate more on the names on the trucks then the names on the box's. This is not a toaster oven or Micro Wave!

Jamie Hall

Oh come now, @Robert O'Brien . I was addressing two different boilers in identical settings and otherwise identical control strategies. You do make a good point, however, which is that the installation, sizing, control strategies, and maintenance are the most important factors.

Just as with cars, to cite a different field, it is possible to take a nominal 85% boiler and, done right, have it come close to that in the real world. It is also possible to take that same boiler and by less competent installation and maintenance have it be lucky to hit 50% in the real world.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I wouldn't ever want a pin style boiler.....over a 3 pass. I know the AFUE is pretty much the same....but a 3 pass will have less standby loss. 

I'm a big fan of indirect water heating during the heating season....in the summer there are much better options. 

HVACNUT

Hanna61 said:

Any 3 pass boiler will be more efficient than a boiler with a pin type heat exchanger like the Peerless WBV.
What burner are they offering with the Viessmann?
Did anyone do a proper heat loss calculation? 

Looking at the quote: 1 - Viessmann Vitorond 100 model VR-1 with Riello oil burner - AFUE rating 87% 2 - No heat loss calculation done as far as I can tell. What would that look like exactly? Maybe it was done, and I was simply unaware. And he included as part of the quote that a HTP MSSU45 indirect fired water heater can be added to system for such and such..... Didn't necessarily ask him for this or discussed this at all during the time he was looking at the system. The Peerless quote is a WBV with 87% too with a Riello too.

Like others said, the contractor is the most important. 
Even the smallest oil boiler is probably too large. You can download a free app from Slant/Fin heat loss calculation and do it yourself. Its easy.
The Peerless WBV3, along with a Riello is a nice combination. Especially with the Hydrostat 3250 Plus control. (As long as its wired and set up correctly. See contractor). That boiler offers 3 firing rates, the lowest only achieved with the Riello F3, not the F5 which is typical when you get the "package".
If it were me, I'd go with a 3 pass for reasons listed above. As long as the contractor who offered the 3 pass was reputable and within my budget. 
What do you currently use for domestic hot water?
What boiler is there now? Where is the chimney? If an exterior brick chimney, has anyone mentioned a stainless liner?

Hanna61

To answer your questions HVACNUT -

It's a 28 year old Peerless with Riello burner (replaced a few years ago) now in the cellar. Live in the sticks in MA, house is from 1854, with an addition probably around 1910, about 3k sq. ft. Chimney is interior with a new stainless steel liner (thanks to the folks here saying it was necessary to get one prior to a new boiler installation.)

A Hydrostat 3250 wasn't mentioned, or maybe that's typical. Not sure what that is or what F3 or F5 is either.

Currently an electric WH, Was thinking of doing a hybrid water heater. But will also see about the Indirect fired oil since so many of you think it's a good way to go.

There are few contractors in this area (none listed on this site service this area). And everyone I know, including me, has had good and not so great experiences too.

Jamie Hall

I'll bet @Charlie from wmass might be induced to take a look.. unless by sticks you mean pretty much anywhere east of Framingham...

Hanna61

Haha - That Quabbin blocks many a provider, and I'm on the edge of many's service areas. It's different in this area too as many don't want to travel even if they are in the next town over (It's kind of far they say.) I don't quite get it.

So I'm not really following this conversation. Not understanding the lingo/system things/additions. Can someone explain to me in layman's term why a 3 pass boiler is better than a standard boiler if they have the same efficiency. And if it is better at efficiency does that mean it will use less oil? Or is it better only with indirect water heating added?

Thanks again.

Hanna61

A friend commented that i probably need to heat the cellar where the boiler is located if I get a 3 pass system. There are water pipes also in this space and going upwards along with the heating pipes. Generally we drip the faucets in the back of the house during super cold weather, so the pipes don't freeze.

Oh for the love of old houses! So many nooks and crannies to insulate.

Comments?

Robert_25

I agree that if your basement is already on the edge of freezing, going to a more efficient oil boiler will probably make that situation worse. Adding a heating zone to the basement would make the house more comfortable and help you avoid frozen pipes, but it will also increase your fuel bill.

If it were me I would add a zone to the basement - but I would also spend some time sealing up the air leaks into the basement.

Hanna61

Got it. Thought this might be the best way to go. Manage it.

They did some crazy stuff in this house when they added additions.

A friend with an old, old house had an energy audit done, and the guy said the best way for them to be more energy efficient was to move to a new house.