Help choosing our next oil boiler

arcticman

New here… first post.

We are considering replacing our 25 year old oil boiler this year before the winter weather arrives. We live in Alaska about 100 miles north of Anchorage.

Our existing boiler is a Well McClain WTGO-5 with tankless domestic hot water heater. The burner is the original Well McClain model QB-180. The boiler works fine but I am concerned about the age. We’re also interested in improving efficiency and avoiding a boiler failure in the middle of winter.

During the summer when the boiler is on only for hot water the cycling to maintain boiler temperature throughout the day is wasting oil. By my best guess maybe 1/2 gallon or more per day.

Our home is ~2300 sq. ft. (living area) 3 floors, 1 zone on each floor, baseboard heat. The garage is ~600 sq. ft. with a garage unit heater. The boiler is located in the garage as well. The boiler throws off enough heat that I rarely need to turn the fan on the unit heater except on the coldest of days or if I’m working in the garage. As an example… right now its 57 degrees outside… inside my garage its 80 degrees.

Our average annual oil usage is ~720 gallons.

We have received 3 bids from 3 different contractors each offering different types of oil boilers. I’m getting conflicting opinions from each contractor making it difficult decide what is the best option for us. In their defense none of the contractors are pushing us to replace our existing boiler. All 3 contractors have said the existing boiler can last for several more years.

Here are the 3 boilers we have received quotes for. Each bid includes adding a 5th zone for an indirect water heater.

Most expensive:
Burnham MPO-IQ147 (using existing 8” flue)

Kinetic Energy EK1 (new direct vent)

Least expensive:
Toyo-Tomi OM128-HH (using existing 8” flue)

I have researched and found a lot of information regarding the EK1. Most all the opinions and reviews are very positive. How realistic is it to expect a 40% reduction in oil consumption?

The Burnham seems to be a fine product as well. But as a traditional cast iron boiler it will still cycle to maintain minimum boiler temperature during the summer.

Regarding the OM128… I found positive opinions and reviews for its use as an “on demand hot water supply” but have found very little information for its use for both hot water and home heating of multiple zones. The OM128 is very light weight compared to the other boilers. My concern with this option is short cycling due to its size and its longevity. Some of the contractors I have spoke with claim the OM128 is very finicky. Others claim it’s the perfect solution for replacing an old cast iron boiler.

I would really appreciate additional information from the pro’s and home owners who have first hand experience with the OM128 used as a hot water supply and home heating supply for home similar to my own.

Also any additional information regarding the Burnham and EK1 options is appreciated.

Thanks

EBEBRATT-Ed

EK is the way to go.

The Weil Mclain you have is a pretty good boiler but the QB burner leaves a lot to be desired.

I wouldn't gauarantee a 40% savings but you will save fuel

Jamie Hall

Have you or any of your contractors actually done the very first step? Doing a heat loss evaluation of your house to determine what size of boiler you really need? The Burnham you mention is rated at around 112,000 BTUh. The Energy Kinetics goes up to 150,000 BTUh. The Toyotomi is an on-demand water heater and shouldn't be even considered for a heating application, in my opinion. Wrong tool for the job.

Get a heat loss evaluation done first to determine the correct boiler size. Then proceed from there. Make sure that whatever you get is easily serviced and maintained.

arcticman

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

EK is the way to go.

The Weil Mclain you have is a pretty good boiler but the QB burner leaves a lot to be desired.

I wouldn't gauarantee a 40% savings but you will save fuel

Thanks for your comments.

What burner would you recommend should we decide not to replace the boiler?

arcticman

Jamie Hall said:

Have you or any of your contractors actually done the very first step? Doing a heat loss evaluation of your house to determine what size of boiler you really need? The Burnham you mention is rated at around 112,000 BTUh. The Energy Kinetics goes up to 150,000 BTUh. The Toyotomi is an on-demand water heater and shouldn't be even considered for a heating application, in my opinion. Wrong tool for the job.

Get a heat loss evaluation done first to determine the correct boiler size. Then proceed from there. Make sure that whatever you get is easily serviced and maintained.

Thanks for you comment.

We haven't had a true heat loss evaluation done. The contractors surveyed the home and based on their experience chose the boiler output.

We built this home ourselves... it is very tight. I installed an air exchanger to handle excess moisture and condensation because of how tight the home is built.

The only items we contracted out when building the house was the foundation, plumbing and heating and the metal roof installation (its a 12 x 12 pitch and more than I could handle). Everything else I did myself. I do most of my home maintenance and repairs. I have replaced a variety of components on the existing boiler over the years and clean out the boiler myself. However I am not qualified to install a new boiler system.

Since I do most of my own maintenance I am leaning towards the EK1. It appears to be the easiest one to clean and service.

Thanks for your opinion on the ToyoTomi... I tend to agree, it looks like the wrong tool for the job. However more than one contractor has highly recommended it for this application and why I have come to this forum to learn more. The ToyoTomi is significantly less expensive than the other choices.

Thanks again

EBEBRATT-Ed

Carlin EZ gas burner if you change just the burner

arcticman

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Carlin EZ gas burner if you change just the burner

Thanks but we do not have gas available in our area.

HVACNUT

Since the EK was proposed to be direct vented, I'm assuming the burner will be downfired to closely match the heat loss of the house. At 2,300 sq ft in a tight house, the 5 section WM Gold is grossly oversized. And you might have the last working QB-180 in the U.S.
How is parts availability in your area? I know everything on the EK-1 Frontier is pretty standard, save for the Energy Manager and there's a bypass that if needed. Most other parts, a tech should have on the truck. 
I'm not familiar with the Toyotomi, but they use an atypical burner. Does the contractor service and have parts in stock for this product?
Not sure but does the Burnham use plug in cards for different options? Are they readily available? What burner is offered with the Burnham? Outdoor reset?
When I bought my current home, it had (still has) a WTGO-3 with a Beckett AFG. The first thing I did was install a Riello F5.

arcticman

HVACNUT said:

Since the EK was proposed to be direct vented, I'm assuming the burner will be downfired to closely match the heat loss of the house. At 2,300 sq ft in a tight house, the 5 section WM Gold is grossly oversized. And you might have the last working QB-180 in the U.S.
How is parts availability in your area? I know everything on the EK-1 Frontier is pretty standard, save for the Energy Manager and there's a bypass that if needed. Most other parts, a tech should have on the truck. 
I'm not familiar with the Toyotomi, but they use an atypical burner. Does the contractor service and have parts in stock for this product?
Not sure but does the Burnham use plug in cards for different options? Are they readily available? What burner is offered with the Burnham? Outdoor reset?
When I bought my current home, it had (still has) a WTGO-3 with a Beckett AFG. The first thing I did was install a Riello F5.

The EK contractor didn't mention "downfiring" the boiler. I'm not sure what it means... I'm assuming it
lowers the boilers BTU output? I don't know if it makes any difference but the garage where the boiler is located is no where near as tight as the rest of the house.

EK boilers appear to be popular in Alaska where oil is the only option. I believe they may even keep boilers in stock at a Fairbanks location.

I don't believe parts availability is a problem... the problem in my area is scheduling service and installation. We are somewhat remote and many contractors in the closest towns do not come this far north.

I've been told parts are not available for the QB-180. I would need to replace the burner if it fails.

The Burnham MPO-IQ147 comes with a Beckett AFG burner BCB9403. The quote we received from the contractor did not include the optional IQ Cards or Outdoor reset.

Thanks for your comments... maybe someone on the forum will come along with 1st hand experience regarding the ToyoTomi.

Steamhead

If that were mine, I wouldn't use direct-vent. If a direct-vent oil boiler is not set up just so, it'll soot up the outside of the house. Stick with chimney vent- Energy Kinetics makes their boilers for both chimney and direct venting, so they're still in the game at this point.

Both the EK and the Burnham MPO are fine choices. For burners, I'd use what's most common in your area for ease of service if a problem develops. In this area, Beckett is most common.

Whichever one you choose, do a heat-loss calculation on your house to get the proper boiler size. Slant/Fin has an app for that.

What domestic hot-water setup did they propose with the Burnham?

arcticman

Steamhead said:

If that were mine, I wouldn't use direct-vent. If a direct-vent oil boiler is not set up just so, it'll soot up the outside of the house. Stick with chimney vent- Energy Kinetics makes their boilers for both chimney and direct venting, so they're still in the game at this point.

Both the EK and the Burnham MPO are fine choices. For burners, I'd use what's most common in your area for ease of service if a problem develops. In this area, Beckett is most common.

Whichever one you choose, do a heat-loss calculation on your house to get the proper boiler size. Slant/Fin has an app for that.

What domestic hot-water setup did they propose with the Burnham?

Hadn't thought about the soot. The existing flue is 8" diameter and about 27' tall. It would need to be lined to a narrower diameter for the EK install. Would that make a difference in efficiency vs. direct vent to the side?

The Burnham was quoted with a zone controlled Dunkirk H20 40 Gallon HWM.

I'll try the Slant.Fin app

Thanks

Ctoilman

Only if there is no other choice, and I really mean NO other choice, I would do a direct vent oil boiler.  
720 gallons per year in Alaska for all your heat and all your hot water?....even if you saved 100 gallons a year it'll take decades to break even on the replacement cost of a new boiler.
Honestly, the boiler is totally fine, oversized for sure, BUT the QB burner is an oil industry embarrassment....but it works for you apparently.  I'd put a Beckett or Carlin burner on it instead.  

EdTheHeaterMan

The Weil McLain recommended fix for a problematic QB burner is a Beckett AFG burner. I have been able to keep the QB operating in most of my New Jersey customers homes. (about 6 or so). I have removed a QB Burner and installed a Beckett burner under a warranty situation many years ago.


The weil mclain part number for the beckett burner is 386-700-404. but you may be able to get the identical specification from Beckett for less. check with your local boiler parts supplier.

You can also add a indirect water heater like the Dunkirk H20 40 (or any other brand of tank) to your existing WM WTGO-5. You can then make the boiler operate as a "cold start" boiler by disabling the Low limit & reverse portion of the aquastat. There are different ways to accomplish this based upon your actual control.

If you go with a new boiler EK is the best.

rick in Alaska

The Ek dealer is actually in Fairbanks, and stocks about everything. Of the choices you have, I would for sure go with it, and do it chimney vent. If you go direct vent, then you have to go with a power venter, and those are just not good. Way too noisy after awhile.
Rick

arcticman

EdTheHeaterMan said:

The Weil McLain recommended fix for a problematic QB burner is a Beckett AFG burner. I have been able to keep the QB operating in most of my New Jersey customers homes. (about 6 or so). I have removed a QB Burner and installed a Beckett burner under a warranty situation many years ago.


The weil mclain part number for the beckett burner is 386-700-404. but you may be able to get the identical specification from Beckett for less. check with your local boiler parts supplier.

You can also add a indirect water heater like the Dunkirk H20 40 (or any other brand of tank) to your existing WM WTGO-5. You can then make the boiler operate as a "cold start" boiler by disabling the Low limit & reverse portion of the aquastat. There are different ways to accomplish this based upon your actual control.

If you go with a new boiler EK is the best.

Thanks for providing the Beckett burner info.

I just cleaned out the boiler... I'm no expert by any means, but it didn't look bad to me. I may just order and install a new burner myself and hold off on getting a new boiler for awhile.

arcticman

Ctoilman said:

Only if there is no other choice, and I really mean NO other choice, I would do a direct vent oil boiler.  
720 gallons per year in Alaska for all your heat and all your hot water?....even if you saved 100 gallons a year it'll take decades to break even on the replacement cost of a new boiler.
Honestly, the boiler is totally fine, oversized for sure, BUT the QB burner is an oil industry embarrassment....but it works for you apparently.  I'd put a Beckett or Carlin burner on it instead.  

Thanks for replying. I don't know what the deal is with QB. It use to trip off regularly... but for the past few years it has worked fine. I don't want to push my luck so I'm considering ordering a Beckett and holding off getting a new boiler.

arcticman

rick in Alaska said:

The Ek dealer is actually in Fairbanks, and stocks about everything. Of the choices you have, I would for sure go with it, and do it chimney vent. If you go direct vent, then you have to go with a power venter, and those are just not good. Way too noisy after awhile.
Rick

Thanks... I wasn't aware the direct vent requires a power venter.

rick in Alaska

Not all direct vent units do, but the Ek is one that requires the power venter. Unless they have changed something that I do not know about. However,I know the burnham can be direct vented without the power venter.
Rick

ethicalpaul

> However I am not qualified to install a new boiler system.

I'm not at all sure of that

arcticman

ethicalpaul said:

> However I am not qualified to install a new boiler system.

I'm not at all sure of that

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm pretty handy but I work slow... real slow. It would probably take me more than a few days to complete an install. My wife may not be too happy without hot water for that long. Also the old boiler weighs ~600 lbs... I don't have the resources to deal with it.

I'm surprised there hasn't been more comments or experiences with the ToyoTomi OM128 used as home heat source and hot water system. Thought for sure someone here would have come across the application.

rick in Alaska

I have only seen a few of these installed for heating, and they seem to run fine. The biggest problem is they are a low mass design, about 5 gallons, with an input of 148,000 btu't, so are not a good fit when you have to start dealing with small btu loads. Lots of short cycling unless you use a buffer tank.
One of my customers put one in with radiant and the boiler cycles once a minute. If you were to put one in, I would highly recommend a buffer tank, but at the additional cost, you might as well put in something smaller that fits the load better.
Also, since the burner is totally different than most other burners, you would want to make sure you have someone available that can work on it, and have spare parts.
Rick

JayMcCay

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and comments

Dan Spillane, Arctic Technical Services is Energy Kinetics’ Territory Manager based in Fairbanks, Alaska. Dan can be reached at 907 452-8368. To help clarify some topics in this thread, if your chimney is properly designed and functioning well, then the System 2000 Frontier or Ascent Combi would likely be appropriate for your application.

Energy Kinetics preferred method of sidewall venting oil or gas is with dilution air (as opposed to power vent), similar to what has been used on gas water heaters for decades. The 90+ Resolute, the Resolute RT, and the Ascent Plus Combi are rated up to 91 AFUE and all use dilution air with polypropylene venting, with installations in Alaska dating back to 2011 for the 90+ Resolute.

We do expect to see very strong savings with any upgrade from a tankless coil boiler. Several years ago, the U.S. Coast Guard in Kodiak, Alaska, replaced (24) new 85% and 86% AFUE cast iron boilers of various makes, indirect water heaters, and electric water heaters with System 2000 in residences and saved an average of nearly 40%. This tremendous savings led to the replacement of another (149) cast iron boilers as part of a Super Energy Saving Performance Contract (Super ESPC) which is run by the Federal Energy Management Program (FEMP). Today’s oil heat and liquid fuels have virtually no sulphur, and burn extremely clean for exceptional long term performance. We have more information on our website https://energykinetics.com/afue/

I can be reached at 800 323-2066

Jay McCay
National Sales Manager
Energy Kinetics

arcticman

rick in Alaska said:

I have only seen a few of these installed for heating, and they seem to run fine. The biggest problem is they are a low mass design, about 5 gallons, with an input of 148,000 btu't, so are not a good fit when you have to start dealing with small btu loads. Lots of short cycling unless you use a buffer tank.
One of my customers put one in with radiant and the boiler cycles once a minute. If you were to put one in, I would highly recommend a buffer tank, but at the additional cost, you might as well put in something smaller that fits the load better.
Also, since the burner is totally different than most other burners, you would want to make sure you have someone available that can work on it, and have spare parts.
Rick

Thanks for your comments... I appreciate you sharing your experience.

arcticman

JayMcCay said:

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and comments

Dan Spillane, Arctic Technical Services is Energy Kinetics’ Territory Manager based in Fairbanks, Alaska. Dan can be reached at 907 452-8368. To help clarify some topics in this thread, if your chimney is properly designed and functioning well, then the System 2000 Frontier or Ascent Combi would likely be appropriate for your application.

Energy Kinetics preferred method of sidewall venting oil or gas is with dilution air (as opposed to power vent), similar to what has been used on gas water heaters for decades. The 90+ Resolute, the Resolute RT, and the Ascent Plus Combi are rated up to 91 AFUE and all use dilution air with polypropylene venting, with installations in Alaska dating back to 2011 for the 90+ Resolute.

We do expect to see very strong savings with any upgrade from a tankless coil boiler. Several years ago, the U.S. Coast Guard in Kodiak, Alaska, replaced (24) new 85% and 86% AFUE cast iron boilers of various makes, indirect water heaters, and electric water heaters with System 2000 in residences and saved an average of nearly 40%. This tremendous savings led to the replacement of another (149) cast iron boilers as part of a Super Energy Saving Performance Contract (Super ESPC) which is run by the Federal Energy Management Program (FEMP). Today’s oil heat and liquid fuels have virtually no sulphur, and burn extremely clean for exceptional long term performance. We have more information on our website https://energykinetics.com/afue/

I can be reached at 800 323-2066

Jay McCay
National Sales Manager
Energy Kinetics

Can the EK1 System 2000 be sidewall vented with dilution air?

Thanks your contribution to the thread.

JayMcCay

The Resolute RT and the 90+ Resolute are the dilution air vented models of System 2000. The Resolute RT is the next generation of the 90+ Resolute, so they are very similar. Dan can confirm Fairbanks warehouse availability of either model with your heating professional.

Jay

AlexC

I installed an om128 two winters ago.  Heats a 1500 sq ft house with radiant slab, indirect hot water tank and 3 Toyo heat convection units.  House is very well insulated and located in Trapper Creek area.   So far so good with no issues whatsoever. Unit is located in daylight basement with direct venting through wall. Only two winters so can’t comment on longevity or long term reliability yet.  

CraigHimselfTH

Alex is that toyo doing all the work with 120 degree heating water?
Is that why you use the convection units instead of regular baseboard ?
also can you comment on the short cycling?

AlexC

Running 180 deg heating water to the convection units and water heater and mixing valve set to 115 deg for the slab. The slab, and the water tank to some extent, are large thermal masses and prevent any short cycling. So far under 400 gal/year fuel oil used last two years at 65 deg.