R410A availability?

RayWohlfarth

Are you seeing shortages and high prices for R410a? Our usual vendor said the pice doubled and they don't expect availability until mid to late July. Are you seeing same?

jad3675

More than doubled. Barnett had a 25lb jug for $95 in Feb of this year. It's now listed for $259.

John

EBEBRATT-Ed

I have herd that 410A will be phased out

RayWohlfarth

@jad3675 Crazy times I did find some for $243
@EBEBRATT-Ed Yeah heard that too now that everyone switched over from r22

JUGHNE

I just ordered some this morning. Some places had only a few jugs available.
Price was more than you talked about, but remember who actually pays for this in the end.

The average person does not know the cost of going "green". And this gas has been around for quite some time.
This is just the beginning, wait until it goes the way of R-22 as we continue to "save the planet".

ethicalpaul

It would be great if it could go the way of R-22, it's a bad greenhouse gas. But there is no alternative at this time.

mattmia2

Probably making manufacturers make stuff that doesn't leak under normal circumstances would go a lot further toward reducing greenhouse gasses both by allowing the refrigerant to be recovered when the appliance is retired and by reducing the energy used to make appliances to replace the appliance that failed prematurely.

EBEBRATT-Ed

What needs to be done when the equipment leaks

is repair it,

replace it

And stop all the gas and go calls

The gas and go calls are caused by three things in my opinion.


1. Homeowners who don't want to pay for leak testing

2. Sloppy service techs who can't braze or leak test

3. Manufacturers making shoddy equipment (especially evaporator and condenser coils)

RayWohlfarth

@JUGHNE Bet the price never goes back to what is was.
@ethicalpaul I feel bad for the seniors who are on a fixed income I am a bit scared of that flammable refrigerant
@mattmia2 @EBEBRATT-Ed I am seeing more and more units leaking after only a few years. Wondering if its due to the higher pressure of R410a or shoddy workmanship

SuperTech

Around here it went from $120-$140 a jug to over $340. I have heard that it is already going to be phased out, which is great considering how its being described as the new, modern eco friendly replacement for R22 to homeowners.  I've heard that some manufacturers are going to begin selling equipment that uses the replacement for R410A very soon,  but it could be just a rumor.

As far as leaks, I mostly see evaporator coil leaks. Its Its funny how some R22 systems are 20 plus years old and going strong without leaking coils but some of the newer units can't last 5 or 10 years before a coil leaks. It doesn't seem to matter if its copper or aluminum.  I chalk it up to poor quality control, maybe thinner tubing in an attempt to meet efficiency requirements by getting better heat exchange.

ethicalpaul

I guess Carrier says they are going to start shipping equipment that uses the new flammable refrigerant. But I see no sign of 410 being made illegal, does anyone else? It's really a nasty problem all around. It can't really be solved by the industry (they sure wouldn't stop using harmful refrigerants by themselves, and even if they did the alternatives are all harmful anyway).

It makes sense to me that the higher pressures make the systems fail faster and leak more often. Unintended consequences are common with regulations of all kinds. But what's the alternative? There isn't one.

I was at a resort once that had a lot of small buildings each with their own AC systems and I saw a couple guys running around the place in a golf cart loaded with pink cannisters. I know they weren't looking for and fixing leaks, they were just pumping the stuff.

All I can do is hope that R&D people find a good replacement.

Tell me guys, when I as a homeowner call a tech and they come and vacuum my mini-split and then charge it up, what happens to the recovered 410?

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

I guess Carrier says they are going to start shipping equipment that uses the new flammable refrigerant. But I see no sign of 410 being made illegal, does anyone else? It's really a nasty problem all around. It can't really be solved by the industry (they sure wouldn't stop using harmful refrigerants by themselves, and even if they did the alternatives are all harmful anyway).

It makes sense to me that the higher pressures make the systems fail faster and leak more often. Unintended consequences are common with regulations of all kinds. But what's the alternative? There isn't one.

I was at a resort once that had a lot of small buildings each with their own AC systems and I saw a couple guys running around the place in a golf cart loaded with pink cannisters. I know they weren't looking for and fixing leaks, they were just pumping the stuff.

All I can do is hope that R&D people find a good replacement.

Tell me guys, when I as a homeowner call a tech and they come and vacuum my mini-split and then charge it up, what happens to the recovered 410?

It gets turned into a reclaimer and I believe is supposed to be recycled.

Not all refrigerants are harmful to the environment.

mattmia2

I think it usually gets burned after it is recovered. Maybe the super scarce ones like freon 12 get reprocessed.

SuperTech said:

As far as leaks, I mostly see evaporator coil leaks. Its Its funny how some R22 systems are 20 plus years old and going strong without leaking coils but some of the newer units can't last 5 or 10 years before a coil leaks. It doesn't seem to matter if its copper or aluminum.  I chalk it up to poor quality control, maybe thinner tubing in an attempt to meet efficiency requirements by getting better heat exchange.

I think it is thinner because metals are much more expensive than they were 20 years ago. The leaks I have seen don't seem to be at joints but within the wall of the tubing.

Also possible that we have just forgotten how to draw tubing in the same way we forgot how to make capacitors.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

I think it usually gets burned after it is recovered. Maybe the super scarce ones like freon 12 get reprocessed.

SuperTech said:

As far as leaks, I mostly see evaporator coil leaks. Its Its funny how some R22 systems are 20 plus years old and going strong without leaking coils but some of the newer units can't last 5 or 10 years before a coil leaks. It doesn't seem to matter if its copper or aluminum.  I chalk it up to poor quality control, maybe thinner tubing in an attempt to meet efficiency requirements by getting better heat exchange.

I think it is thinner because metals are much more expensive than they were 20 years ago. The leaks I have seen don't seem to be at joints but within the wall of the tubing.

Also possible that we have just forgotten how to draw tubing in the same way we forgot how to make capacitors.

Both the new way of making capacitors and evaporators is much more efficient at moving product.

Similar can be said for many of the modern boilers.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I have seen plenty of old R-22 units still running after 30-40- years , but then again I am in the north east. I don't think R410A is the cause of the leaks, even with the higher pressure.

I think it is poorly made coils, microchannels & regular coils and sloppy workmanship.


The equipment manufacturers don't wan't the equipment to last 30-40 years. Planned obsolesence.

You see it with AC equipment, MOD Con boiler and cast iron boilers

It's all made to fail

They know how to build stuff to last, it was done for years. Now the MFGs hide behind the "High

Efficiency" banner.

They know how to build it better, can't or won't

ratio

I got a notion that people won't pay for stuff that's built to last. It's hard enough getting people to pay for cheap junk.

ChrisJ

ratio said:

I got a notion that people won't pay for stuff that's built to last. It's hard enough getting people to pay for cheap junk.

It's certainly not cheaper to pay for the labor and refrigerant (especially now) on getting an evaporator replaced 1-2 times in 10 years even if the evaporator is covered under warranty.

Imagine if companies sold oil tanks that were so thin they rusted out and dumped the load in 5-10 years just so they could sell them easier? That's literally what's going on here with refrigeration equipment.

ratio

I think 'planned obsolescence' is a red herring, as an intended goal. The state of things can be easily explained by cost cutting & 'efficiency' goals—early failure is merely a side benefit.

As long as 'efficiency' is the metric & life expectancy is excluded from consideration, well, here we are.

mattmia2

And dealing with all that from management drives the people who know how to do it right to go find a job elsewhere.

RayWohlfarth

It seems like the industry has adopted a 15 year life expectancy for everything. Guess it make sense financially to them. The days of a system lasting 20-30 years is gone

GW

Once in a while I make a brilliant move, I bought 50 jugs a while back at about 70 bucks. I’m set for life with the pink stuff 

ChrisJ

EBEBRATT-Ed

Anyone know what is going to replace R410a? Maybe R290 LOL. Not sure the zoom lockers will like that! LOL Think all of those systems are brazed

ChrisJ

Is there a specific reason you're afraid of flammable refrigerants?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@ChrisJ

I am not afraid of them at all. But with all the leaking systems out their if R290 is installed with the same sloppy workmanship and leaking coils it could be an issue.

Maybe if the industry is forced to use flammable refrigerants things will tighten up

RayWohlfarth

@ChrisJ what frightens me is that flammable refrigerants have pressures higher than R410a and when I read the MSDS sheet, it says it is highly flammable. I am afraid that a leak could cause a catastrophe in a building or home. I trust what the msda sheet says rather than the salesperson

ChrisJ

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@ChrisJ

I am not afraid of them at all. But with all the leaking systems out their if R290 is installed with the same sloppy workmanship and leaking coils it could be an issue.

Maybe if the industry is forced to use flammable refrigerants things will tighten up

For whatever reason Isobutane has taken over the small appliance market.
Not sure why vs R290.


Any idea if the leaky evaporators could be due to bad installs I.E. moisture in the systems? Have you had any fail?

ChrisJ

RayWohlfarth said:

@ChrisJ what frightens me is that flammable refrigerants have pressures higher than R410a and when I read the MSDS sheet, it says it is highly flammable. I am afraid that a leak could cause a catastrophe in a building or home. I trust what the msda sheet says rather than the salesperson

It's only flammable if there's oxygen. The pressure is moot in a properly designed system.

I would never trust a salesperson.

RayWohlfarth

@ChrisJ Liked the comment about salespersons. Found this article about dangers of flammable refrigerant
https://racplus.com/uncategorized/refcom-warns-that-african-refrigerant-deaths-could-be-tip-of-the-iceberg-02-06-2021/

ChrisJ

RayWohlfarth said:

@ChrisJ Liked the comment about salespersons. Found this article about dangers of flammable refrigerant
https://racplus.com/uncategorized/refcom-warns-that-african-refrigerant-deaths-could-be-tip-of-the-iceberg-02-06-2021/

That article literally says nothing about the dangers of flammable refrigerant.
It doesn't say who died, or why.

It does mention someone venting R290 in a kitchen. That's certainly not the refrigerants fault, would you vent a BBQ tank next to a stove in an enclosed space?

mattmia2

I'm not sure what volume of air you need to dilute a couple pounds of propane with to get below the LEL. The chances that it will collect somewhere are pretty good given that it is heavier than air. Isobutane is even more so heavier than air. It seems that a small explosion that would not in itself damage anything but would set something else on fire would be easy to accomplish.

WMno57

"In August 2012, Mercedes-Benz showed that the substance ignited when researchers sprayed it and A/C compressor oil onto a car's hot engine. A senior Daimler engineer who ran the tests, stated "We were frozen in shock, I am not going to deny it. We needed a day to comprehend what we had just seen." Combustion occurred in more than two thirds of their simulated head-on collisions. The engineers also noticed etching on the windshield caused by the corrosive gases.[27] On September 25, 2012, Daimler issued a press release[10] and proposed a recall of cars using the refrigerant. The German automakers argued for development of carbon dioxide refrigerants, which they argued would be safer."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,3,3,3-Tetrafluoropropene#Flammability

We consumers are too stupid to make our own decisions. Politicians should make all our decisions for us.

Politicians are smarter and un-biased (they could never be bought).

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many people reading this have their families in a newer car containing R-1234yf?

ChrisJ

WMno57 said:

"In August 2012, Mercedes-Benz showed that the substance ignited when researchers sprayed it and A/C compressor oil onto a car's hot engine. A senior Daimler engineer who ran the tests, stated "We were frozen in shock, I am not going to deny it. We needed a day to comprehend what we had just seen." Combustion occurred in more than two thirds of their simulated head-on collisions. The engineers also noticed etching on the windshield caused by the corrosive gases.[27] On September 25, 2012, Daimler issued a press release[10] and proposed a recall of cars using the refrigerant. The German automakers argued for development of carbon dioxide refrigerants, which they argued would be safer."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,3,3,3-Tetrafluoropropene#Flammability

We consumers are too stupid to make our own decisions. Politicians should make all our decisions for us.

Politicians are smarter and un-biased (they could never be bought).

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many people reading this have their families in a newer car containing R-1234yf?

Did you know these cars run on gasoline and typically have 12 to 20 gallons in a tank?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline







I can't speak for everyone, but since there's 12 gallons of gasoline under the backseat I'm not too concerned with the quart of R1234YF.

mattmia2

There is a whole lot less opportunity for a gas to collect and ignite in a car than in a house or refrigerator.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

There is a whole lot less opportunity for a gas to collect and ignite in a car than in a house or refrigerator.

Gas ranges in the kitchen have valves the user can open and close. You can also leave them open with no flame lit and they are often connected to an infinite supply of fuel.


A refrigerator has no valves, no gaskets etc. If properly made it should never leak.


But, you are 100% correct.

ratio

I watch the news when I want to find out if something's dangerous. If it makes the news, it's a rare occurrence that I don't worry about. If it's so common that is not newsworthy, I start looking for ways to remediate the danger.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Back to ammonia a real refrigerant!!!! Everything would have to be steel so that's out

WMno57

WMno57 said:

Did you know these cars run on gasoline and typically have 12 to 20 gallons in a tank?

Gasoline bad, Lithium-Ion batteries completely safe. (not really, just ask the family of Omar Awan)

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29576096/tesla-model-s-lawsuit-door-handles-fire/

Ask a First Responder how they feel about cutting into 300 volts DC to get someone out of a wreck.

The electric Car-B-Ques have only just begun.

All forms of travel and transportation involve risk. Life is dangerous. Corruption and incompetence don't help.

True story about six children who died in a gasoline powered minivan crash, because a corrupt former Governor and now Felon sold Commercial Driver's Licenses to unqualified drivers when he was Illinois Secretary of State.

"The corruption scandal leading to Ryan's downfall began more than a decade earlier during a federal investigation into a deadly crash in Wisconsin. Six children from the Willis family of Chicago, Illinois, were killed; their parents, Rev. Duane and Janet Willis, were severely burned.[30] The investigation revealed a scheme inside Ryan's Secretary of State's office in which unqualified truck drivers obtained licenses through bribes. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ryan#Scandals,_trial,_and_conviction

Some of you may remember the theory of "Peak-Oil". There was also a Peak-TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). Perhaps Trough-TCO would be a better description.

TCO is rising on many consumer products because of shortened product lifespans and increased maintenance cost. (I want to SCREAM every time I read an article written by a 20-somthing hipster journalist that claims e-cars won't need maintenance).

Here's something under reported by the 20-somthing hipster journalist media: Due to the Chip Shortage, for a very limited time you can purchase a new GM 1/2 ton truck without Active Fuel Management and Start/Stop. Disclaimer: I own GM stock. I may consume even more fossil fuels if enough of you buy lobotomized 2021 1/2 Silverados.

There is a cost all of us pay when Politicians, and their un-elected rule-making Bureaucrats cause under tested version 1.0 products to be rushed to market. They may appease their "Green" base, but will they reverse or even slow down Climate Change?

How much are you willing to pay to be Green? You may save some energy but at what cost to your TCO? Will it make any difference? There are Billions of people on this planet who will continue to consume fossil fuels to survive and increase their standard of living. Did those terrible CFL light bulbs make a difference? How much additional mercury is now in our water as a result?

More Fission and Carbon Sequestration. Electric freight rail lines coast to coast.

ChrisJ

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Back to ammonia a real refrigerant!!!! Everything would have to be steel so that's out

Mmmm.. Stainless steel evaporator and condenser................

Big Ed_4

I always wonder who makes the prices ??

RayWohlfarth

I am so tired of hearing about increased prices and lack of material due to covid. It seem that everyone is trying to cash in on the pandemic and create shortages and raise prices.