Replacing oversized 1955 boiler with Multiple Steamers....FINALLY WITH MORE PICTURES! AND STILL MORE

dopey27177

As I mentioned before the solonoid valve is the way to go.
If the 3 Way valve can be set p as a diverting valve that could save you some pipe work,if not the 2 way solonoid valve is fine

The cost of the 2 way solonoid valve is about sixty dollars.

I mentioned the V5011 set up because I used them on boilers 150 HP to 500 HP. In that senario I was able to make the valve modulate where feed water was supplied as steam steam left the boiler, never supplying
feed water at the maximum flow rate of the valve.

June 9 is my 80th birth day, still trying to keep my mind active.

I fully retired at 70 not because I got old but because I could no longer listen to the crying and whining from my customers.

Things like this were said to me "I wish I listened to you years ago, could you make the job cheaper"

My response to them was we can do it over 2 to three years, Cheaper is what got you into this state of affairs.

Then came the coup de gras can you lower your price by at least 25%.

At that juncture I just got up and walked out never returning to that customer.

Jake

Erin Holohan Haskell

Happy Birthday, Jake!

JUGHNE

Yes, Jake, another good day to be here......Happy Birthday!

JUGHNE

Today's question is concerning condensate reservoir pipe....not "tank".

For this project the single boiler for the single pipe system of the building feeds
thru 147' of perimeter main before droping down in the boiler room to gravity feed to the boiler. ("A" dimension is about 6')

Most of the main is 4", only 414 EDR remains connected.
New boiler for the single pipe system will be PB-05L......206,500 BTUH input.....
533 EDR. Oversized for additional pick up factor. Much of the 4" main is not insulated and is needed for heat in the garden level basement.

The boiler holds 12.4 gallons of water for steaming.

(FWIW the old Kewanee that heated the entire two buildings held 250 gallons)

I have 4 1/2' of 6" sch 40 blk pipe that was the header of the old boiler, it is in excellent condition.

My thought was to have the welder cap the ends, weld 1 1/4" taps on the top for steam pressure and 1 1/4" tap on the bottom for condensate water.
The horizontal pipe would then be centered on the water line.

4.5' of 6" X 1.46 gallons per foot = 6.57 total......1/2 filled would add about 3.3 gallons of water to the 12.4 gallons of boiler content.
This is a 25% increase of water available.

Does this seem worthwhile doing?

This would not be a "tank" that might require ASME approval rather simply more piping external to the boiler.

I have another site that utlitized this method so am familiar with the workings of it.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Small boiler with a lot of connected pipe I would be a little concerned about running out of water before the condensate comes back. I usually like 20 min of run time before adding water.

Your question says "condensate tank" thought you were using a boiler feed tank??

I think using the 6" pipe is a good idea and it doesn't have to meet ASME I have done this plenty of times. Even have made buffer tanks out of pipe.

The question is will the 6" be enough?


If the boiler is 533 EDR + the pick up load I am getting somewhere around 56 lbs of steam in 20 min or around 7 gallons of water.

The 6" will give you 3.3 gallons and I am sure the boiler water level can drop before it needs water, question is how much.

With a feed tank and the 6" I would think your ok, worse case is a shot of make up on a cold start. With a condensate tank I would be more concerned.

The question is how long for the condensate to return? Vertical building or spread out low building??

JUGHNE

This is two buildings.....2 separate systems.

Older building (tower) is single pipe....gravity return.

Newer building is 2 pipe with the boiler feed pump.

I am refering to the single pipe system (tower) for the reservoir pipe---not to be considered a "tank"

The "tower" (2 floors with garden level basement heated by some bare steam pipe) is 68' x 30', the boiler room in in one corner. Steam main wraps around the building in the rectangle shape of roughly 24 x 60 x 24 x 60' and EOM at the boiler. 2 x 2" risers of about 15' (potentially 3 risers to be used if needed). And 2 risers on the floor just above the main piping.

I just happen to aquire the 6" pipe from the old header and would only be out the welding costs if needed to go larger.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@JUGHNE

Then I would use the 6" you have and it should be fine

JUGHNE

More pictures....removal of old Kewanee

Dolly for new boilers coming in.

"Jack the Welder" with his new plasma cutter just for this job (and others).
He cut every thing up to 36 X 18" for prepared scrap size...better rate.

Plasma cutter would not cut very well thru built up scale so grinder was used on the stay rods.

The old girl was pretty thick, original ? factory writing on side panel.

You can see the tunnel to the left for the UG coal auger which came up inside the fire box.

The 3" 4 oz NG line is to the left.

The 2" dry return is low to the floor behind the boiler.

JUGHNE

Part of the agreement was for the owner to remove old boiler and piping that I could not use.
Also build ramps down to the basement.
Being how also the owner was to help get new boilers and feeder pump into the room, (and also they know I am old) we got almost ADA style ramps built by a carpenter.

The custodian (Scott) removed the bad concrete sections of the floor and poured 3 6" pads for boilers......that extra 2" helps your knees and back a lot....I do a lot of piping off a mechanics stool.

The Superintendent, Principal and custodian helped in getting the boilers in....that probably won't happen in a larger school.

The headers were built on a Rigid Tri-stand (6" capacity) awaiting the feeder pump to complete the shipment.

Tristand chain vise was loaned to me by the NG company that our village owns.
They have offered me use of their 4' Al pipe wrenches when I need them.
I have a key to their shop and can get fittings that I am short of if needed.

Again, things that won't happen in a larger town.

I have mentioned this before, but a small village like this enjoys a lot of cooperation, especially for it's K-12 school.

And Jack the welder works for the NG company and is a certified welder. He will be making the lengths of 4" pipe I need.

The NBP is about 80% complete.....more pictures to come.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Plasma is a good idea, only used one once. We always cut with oxy aceytelene.

He did a nice job

Biggest one I ever cut was a 20' long HRT with an 8' diameter shell. Boy, did we get a surprise. The boiler was made in 1927. The shell wasn't welded it was riveted. (2) 3/4" plates overlapped where they joined and another 5/8" plate on the inside. So most of it was 3/4" thick but it was 2 1/8" where they joined.

That's the job I really learned how to cut with a cutting torch. Amazing how you can cut 2" thick (or thicker), took a lot of oxygen and high oxygen pressure.

Another issue we had had a happy ending but could have gone bad. We were cutting up a steel boiler that had stay rods like yours. We would cut the stuff in about 2' x 2' pieces.

My partner cut the square and wasn't ready for it to come down. He thought the stay rods would hold it and they would have but they were rotted off.

It almost got him but it was a close call.


I see you made use of some doors. Hope they are solid core LOL

JUGHNE

Boilers are up and running well.
More pictures
Single pipe system with gravity return, single boiler.

Single pipe boiler on left and 2 two pipe boilers (multiple boilers) on right.

Accumulator pipe for gravity return system. Used pieces of old 6" header to make 5' x 6" reservoir for delayed condensate return. That 1955 pipe was in excellent condition. The welder, (who also did the demo of old boiler) is the local gas company's certified pipeline welder. Any welds you see in these shots are his.

This is the 4" riser off the 4" header common to the multi boilers on the right. I reused the 4" flanges and some of the old 4" pipe. Had to buy 3 4" weld 90's.


The common 4" header fed by 2 double drop header boilers.
The 4" pipe was fabricated by the welder from stock SCH 40 and 1/2 of 4" nipples.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@JUGHNE

Looking good. Nice job!

It's like Christmas Eve on the WALL

JUGHNE

The feeder pump is in the last picture on the right, it has a low inlet as the dry return of the 2 pipe system was only about 9" above the floor.
The single pipe boiler is a PB 63-05L, the multi boilers are a PB 63-05L and a PB 63-04L.

All have 34" from the water line to the top of the 2" risers.
A control panel was built for the relays for the feeder pump and solenoid valves for the 2 pipe boiler system. Indicator lights to show which boiler was calling for water. This is handy to observe the water level bounce and adjust the inlet flow accordingly.

On top of this is the RIB 2 pole relay for boiler isolation from the single tstat that operates the 2 pipe multi boiler system. Lower right is the transformer for the RIB and it's tstat.
(That is the only exposed low voltage conductors, the rest are all in EMT or 3/8" flex.
I hate to see low voltage cables flying around the boiler as you usually see....just a pet peeve)
There is a spare contactor stored in the control box. 125 V coils are not a standard stock item for me.
Isolation power switches as the CB's are a long ways away and in a locked room.


The busy side of the feeder pump, 2" inlet strainer with blow down. One of the 2 F&T's for boiler over fill, each of them have a strainer with blow down also.
The discharge of the pump is piped right back into the tank. Even with this fully open there is still plenty of flow into the boiler. Each boiler is fed with 1/2" blk pipe and has a plug valve to control flow.

And finally I found a place for one of the two 3/4" crossover copper fittings I ended up with at an auction some 30 years ago. I would have used both of them if possible. Still have one left BTY.

Robert_25

Great story of local collaboration, and nice install. The flue pipe looks lost in that old thimble.

JUGHNE

There is a 10" SS "flexible" liner 43' long producing a good draft. That existing ring is about 22", there is a 5" cap under it for reference to size.

All 3 boilers allowed a 1" reduction for vent connector. This boiler closest to the tee is reduced to 7".
Thinking it would limit some over draft conditions and give more to the other 2 boilers which are piped full size (7" & 8")


There is over 100' Unistrut channel lagged in to the floor joists overhead.
Maybe 70' of 3/8" rod used. Fortunate to have 10 1/2' ceiling.

I like to be able to stand or hang on just about all the pipes I put in.

BobZmuda

What a fun setup. They're certainly lucky to have someone who knows and cares about this system.

One thing that I found useful on my dual steam boiler setup was to have the boilers water connected in two places. One was a series of valves and pipes setup and connecting the bottom blowdown piping to each other. The other connection was higher up in the waterline.

It did a few things. Coupled the water level between boilers, doubled the amount of water for the boiler that was running, and enabled me to keep hot (less oxygen) water and proper chemical levels in both boilers at the same time.

They were two 80hp scotch marine style kewanee steam boilers. Maybe someone else will chime in on how well this would work on two cast iron sectionals.

JUGHNE

Thank you for your response.

These have a single feeder pump with M&M 150 pump controls on each.
Each boiler has an electric solenoid valve to have the pump output directed to the boiler that needs the water.

They currently fire together from one tstat. After pipe insulation is installed the hope is to stage them.

As far as sharing a common return I have read that is unadvisable as each boiler will steam away differently.
These 2 (different sized) boilers only hold 12.7 gallons and 10 gallons respectively.

Little water to work with.

We took out a Kewanee that held 210-250 gallons. 1.3 million or so btuh.

Thanks again for your interest.

The Steam Whisperer

Slant fin has thier modular steam boiler setups. I've only used at most 2 boilers together with a common supply and return header and both at the same firing rate. Once they were cleaned up, it worked fine. The two baby 80 steamers I installed are my church are set up with common supply and return headers and work fine...even with one being about 1 inch lower than the other (OOPS). 2 x 345,000 input with 4inch risers and 2inch returns. Both are feed from a common condensate pump, but have seperate water feeders if I decide to run only one boiler with the second isolated by King valves in the supply and return to the boiler. We ran all last winter on only 1 boiler with the building in set back due to covid closure.

JUGHNE

The busy bucket, each boiler has a steel bucket for blow down.
There is a 1/2" drain on each connected with a garden hose.
#1 & #2 boilers with the M&M 150 blow downs go into the bucket, it drains slowly and has not melted the garden hose yet. That drains into a PVC floor drain which has endured years of blow down from the previous boiler. Also there are sight glass blowdowns as seen on the Gordo Utubes as is done by "All Steamed Up" with Steamhead and Gordo in charge. Also the 3/4" copper compression fitting on each relief valve...again by their recommendation.
That water goes into the bucket also.

Then the skim tapings are 1 1/4" which reduce on the vertical drop and are terminated with a 3/4" cap above the bucket. So the skimming process requires only bringing the boiler up to full steam, shut down and water added to produce a small stream out of the 3/4" pipe into the bucket.
Bypass valve on the single pipe gravity return boiler will add this water.
The boilers with feeder pump connections get back fed water thru the lower drain valve.


Side view, (on it's side) of #1 boiler, the control tree is the same on all 3 boilers.


Air vents for the 1 pipe system boiler #3. Ready for more venting. This is a 3/4" manifold connected into the 2 1/2" EOM line at the drop to the wet return of 1" copper. Strainer was available for the wet return connection. Also strainer on horizontal air vent piping. Blow down valves on both.
Vents and blow down in that location for access with ladder.

4" steam main from 2 boilers on top before it drops down into tunnel.
3" NG 4 ounce pipe line into basement thru outside wall.
2 1/2" EOM for single pipe system.


Boiler #2, same as #1, with it's bucket, same skimming procedure as #2.
2 water meters curtesy of local utility, they were up grading so I dug thru the pile to find 2 that worked.

MLJ

Good looking install. Is there a way to keep track amount of run time for each boiler?

EBEBRATT-Ed

I replaced a 200 ton chiller in a small chiller room. Knowing once the chiller was set in place there would be no easy ladder access over the top of the chiller (it took up most of the room) I covered the ceiling with unistrut to hang from before we set the chiller. Then if we had pipe in a spot with no strut overhead we could add some strut hung of the larger strut. Worked out pretty well. Mostly 6" pipe so we needed something


Hangers are a big part of the job especially with larger size pipe....no cheating LOL

PC7060

@JUGHNE - I was in Nebraska this week and  should have reached out to you to see if I could tour your cool project. 

I assume you accept booking fees paid in beer?

JUGHNE

MLJ, thank you. There are no hour meters on each boiler.
There is a separate NG meter for these units. I have 2 years of previous consumption of the old boiler, which did 2 separate buildings....a 1 pipe older (1920?) section and a 2 pipe newer 1954 section.

A single boiler for the older and 2 units for the newer.

The gas meter, hopefully, will determine increased overall efficiency.

PC, you were only about 150 miles away....a short drive in this state.
BTW, Merlot or Cab would get you in.

MLJ

Have had some cold weather in Nebr. How are the boilers working for you?

JUGHNE

I asked 3 of the lady teachers about their comfort level and got positive reviews.
That was only a 40 degree day though.
You do not want to ask too many women if it is too hot or too cold.

Boilers working pretty good. Working with less than 1/2 PSI so far.

We need pipe insulation yet....things change a lot after insulating.

Boiler room is very hot, more than previous boiler.
There is more exposed pipe in the room now then before.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@JUGHNE said

"I asked 3 of the lady teachers about their comfort level and got positive reviews.
That was only a 40 degree day though.
You do not want to ask too many women if it is too hot or too cold."


I have been down that road plenty of times.

We had a Town Hall in Ct. we used to service. A Smith 28 that did floors 1-3 and a Smith 2500 that did the top floor .....the mayors office etc. 2 seperate steam systems in the same building.

Well, the 2500 cooked itself in the middle of winter and it was cold. They still had to get 3 prices but it was an emergency so it was kind of an informal bid. But the mayor was cold.

I told the director we could do an emergency cross connect to heat the top floor off the other boiler . He gave me the ok and for small $$ I went there and worked all night. I only cross connected the steam with 1 1/2 " pipe and I don't remember what I did with the condensate but it worked. it got us the boiler replacement job

The next day we were lugging sections down the stairs and they came and told me everyone on the top floor was leaving and going home because they had "no heat"

I grabbed my digital thermometer and scooted to the top floor. It was 70 degrees everywhere, I checked every office.

They were just looking for an excuse to go home LOL

JUGHNE

So the inspectors showed up and checked things out.
The electrical inspector was happy and also interested in how steam piping was done.

The State boiler inspector spent a lot of time studying piping etc, also a lot of time looking in code books.
He also called his boss, sent him some pictures and then came back with some things that needed to be corrected.

The multiple boilers that feed the common 4" header, must have King valves on the discharge, he cited State Code Title 229, which actually refers you to other national codes.
OK, so 4 2" ball valves corrected that.

Also each boiler disconnect must have means of being locked in the open position at the boiler.
This is in accordance with ASME CSD-1....paragraph CE-110.
So 3 lock off plates on the switches corrected that.

The reasoning of the lock off switches was not lock out-tag out for service safety as the switches are right on the side of the boilers. The inspector said in the event that he must red tag a boiler he would then lock the switch off.

The inspection program is usually performed by the owner's insurance inspectors.
For new installation the insurance company deferred to the State Inspector.
Actually this is a good idea from the safety standpoint.

I have been with insurance inspectors and most walk thru and just look, never touch anything, never witness a LWCO test being done etc.
We even tested the emergency boiler shut down switch killing all 3 boilers.

So the corrections have been made, I will certainly not argue about their requirements.

As the Pharaoh, (Yul Brenner) in "Moses and the Ten Commandments" said "So it is written...so it shall be".

You do not argue with the Pharaoh.

ethicalpaul

Hey wait a minute, your inspector allowed the drop headers?!?! I like your inspector better than mine!

JUGHNE

I was prepared with install instructions for drop headers and also the field constructed condensate accumulator/reservoir for boiler #3, the single boiler in the corner for the 1 pipe system.

Although the documents were for Weil MacLaine boilers, not PB, they seemed to have some creditability.

Also boiler #3 was questioned because of the reduced flue vent connector, 8" reduced to 7", there is a page that allows this for the PB boilers of this size. That was the only one reduced because it was the closest connection to the 10" 43' high flue stack.

JUGHNE

The inspector did view my wall art in the boiler room.

Floor plan had to be summited to state for reduced clearances of boiler installation.

The pipe tunnel, being open to the boiler room, was used for added combustion air volume as the existing wall vent opening was just a little short for proper air availability.

Thanks to Mrs. Paul for showing how to get boilers into the basement!

A bright light in an otherwise dim boiler room.

We did actually use that rope climbing device for control of boilers rolling down the ramps.
Scott the custodian (AKA rope rescue guy) had all the necessary items for the delivery.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@JUGHNE

That's pretty much the same way MA operates. State does the first inspection then the useless insurance company takes over. The ASME CSD-1 is their little favorite around here.

Somewhere in their they want emergency switches at EVERY boiler room entrance which is a PITA. Don't know if you got stuck with that one. Some inspectors enforce it some don't.

Not sure about the king valves I will have to look that up. MA calls residential 250,000 or less anything over that commercial.

ethicalpaul

LOL Jugne you made my day with that picture!!! The device we used is called a "gri-gri", I believe some arborists use them also, although I know that some of them use something called a "speed knot" in the rope that ends up getting pretty crispy when they are coming down at speed.

Good thinking including the WM documents, but my inspector wasn't going for that...he demanded communication from PB which I was luckily barely able to acquire.

My inspector also tried to get me on the flue reducer that PB includes with some of their boilers including my 63-03L. Luckily I had the piece of paper to show him, his jaw about hit the floor. "You got me there" he said But it's not about winning fights, Mr. Inspector, it's about safety, right?

JUGHNE

I hope you made points with Mrs. Paul by her picture ending up pinned up on a boiler room wall.
What did she think of it, or have you shown her all your "boiler porn" you view.
It is so much better than the shot of a boiler sliding down planks in a cellar door.

That single paper included with the boiler was apparently an addendum to I&O manual.
Glad I had it available when questioned.

PB must have done testing for approval for that flue connector reduction.
I am assuming it was to get them in the market if HO had only a 6" or 7" liner and the boiler had the 7 or 8" flue connection.