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April repipe

Dayton_Dude
Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
At long last my Whiskey Tango Foxtrot piped boiler is being repaired. There was a leak under a door that has killed at least 2 boiler over the past 20 years. It is still in progress in these photos but I couldnt wait. 

Comments

  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    The last image is the old boiler setup. Backwards equalizer and a ghetto 3in to 1.5in adaptor. It also kicked like a mule. 
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,141
    I'm sorry to say so, but it's still a little scary. The equalizer setup is still freaky. I wish the header were higher (I hope it's at least 24" above the water line).

    That's a crazy 3-1/2" (or so) to 1/2" tee they have there with an interesting position for the makeup water to go.
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
    mattmia2luketheplumber
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    Paul it is way better than it was.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,362
    W T H is that in the 4th pic. Reducing T for the EQ line, close nipple coupling and a plug?

    dying to see that in a manual?
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    edited April 6
    It was a way to fix the backwards equalizer and introduce some kind of loop in the system without banging around the boiler too much. Take aways: equalizer is on the correct side. Boiler doesnt knock. Return doesnt leak. The int install positioned the boiler such that manual piping was nearly impossible without a near reinstall... 
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 4,014
    Does that boiler have a second outlet that would let everything start out heading in the right direction?
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    It doesnt have the option to put a second header
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 4,857

    Paul it is way better than it was.

    I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this assessment. The carryover water still does not have a clear path back to the bottom of the boiler. If you had dropped the equalizer off the bottom of that tee instead of the side it would have been proper.

    Header appears to be sloped the wrong way, a swing joint would have been advantageous, and per spec, here to allow some maneuverability on the slope.

    It will work, sort of, after that tee fills up with water. What the impact of all that may be is anyone's guess, steam is very forgiving luckily. Your water feed requires the water to go uphill to get into the boiler, or again, fill that tee first. That is going to make for a very nice corrosion factory.

    I think a concept you might be missing, based on what I see, is that all the water in the system works by gravity. So think about where the water is going and that it always wants to go downhill, then study what you have done there.

    It's your house, your boiler, but there is definitely some sketchy piping.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    @KC_Jones

    The header is on the proper side of the boiler to catch water. There were compromises, improvements can be made, but now there isnt a leak that is going to kill another boiler. For me this is step 1... 
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    @ethicalpaul

    Yes it is 24 in from waterline. 
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,362
    KC_Jones said:
    Paul it is way better than it was.
    I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this assessment. The carryover water still does not have a clear path back to the bottom of the boiler. If you had dropped the equalizer off the bottom of that tee instead of the side it would have been proper. Header appears to be sloped the wrong way, a swing joint would have been advantageous, and per spec, here to allow some maneuverability on the slope. It will work, sort of, after that tee fills up with water. What the impact of all that may be is anyone's guess, steam is very forgiving luckily. Your water feed requires the water to go uphill to get into the boiler, or again, fill that tee first. That is going to make for a very nice corrosion factory. I think a concept you might be missing, based on what I see, is that all the water in the system works by gravity. So think about where the water is going and that it always wants to go downhill, then study what you have done there. It's your house, your boiler, but there is definitely some sketchy piping.
    Exactly 

    “When” it fills up in the 1st hour 
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    How about this... We will see how this works/doesnt then keep it documented so future generations know where the line is? I am willing to do that at least
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    Ofcorse improvements as necessary
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,215
    How about this... We will see how this works/doesnt then keep it documented so future generations know where the line is? I am willing to do that at least
    Future generations will never be taught whatever ☝️that is.
    A lot of things "work". Some of us try to achieve a tad more than that.
    mattmia2
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,141
    pecmsg said:
    KC_Jones said:
    Paul it is way better than it was.
    I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this assessment. The carryover water still does not have a clear path back to the bottom of the boiler. If you had dropped the equalizer off the bottom of that tee instead of the side it would have been proper. Header appears to be sloped the wrong way, a swing joint would have been advantageous, and per spec, here to allow some maneuverability on the slope. It will work, sort of, after that tee fills up with water. What the impact of all that may be is anyone's guess, steam is very forgiving luckily. Your water feed requires the water to go uphill to get into the boiler, or again, fill that tee first. That is going to make for a very nice corrosion factory. I think a concept you might be missing, based on what I see, is that all the water in the system works by gravity. So think about where the water is going and that it always wants to go downhill, then study what you have done there. It's your house, your boiler, but there is definitely some sketchy piping.
    Exactly 

    “When” it fills up in the 1st hour 
    It will fill up fast enough. Then after the call for heat it will cool. Then the next heat cycle, there will be a large mass of cool water for the steam to hammer. That’s what I fear.
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,864
    Well, let's see what happens..................
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    ethicalpaulluketheplumberdelta Tgerry gill
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    edited April 7
    Wow. This seems to have made a lot of people very angry. I am really sorry. I did not mean to offend anyone, I didn't mean to hurt anyone, I just wanted to post the current status of my boiler. 

    The potential problems:
    water knock from the capped mass.
    It will take longer to fill.
    It isn't exactly the picture in the manual.
    It is unorthodox and probably should never be repeated again ever.

    Problems solved:
    Previous return has flooded bbasement causing serious water damage and mold.
    There was no loop.
    Equalizer was on the wrong side and knocked horribly.
    Water supply was horribly rusted and fill valve was on the other side of the sight glass.

    I am not attacking the art of steam or the tradition of how one pipe is done. I do not want to offend any of you... but if you are hurt I can just not post again.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,141
    No one is angry. We see a lost opportunity here for you to have a properly operating boiler. We are just telling you what we see. We want the best outcome for you
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
    mattmia2neilcdelta T
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    Got it. Lets start with the filler. My boiler has its return piped to the opisite side from the sight glass. It did not have a hartford loop and the old eq was backwards. To fix that the eq and fill valve were put next to each other.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,141
    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the return being on the opposite side of the gauge glass.

    The Hartford loop doesn’t really affect the normal operation of the boiler and it really doesn’t do much of anything ever.

    The old EQ was indeed a nightmare but the new one is too 🥺
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    Ok long term plan. I am going to as stated before see how it goes as is. If it is super awful I will take out the 1.5 in eq and use the old ports as drains.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 10,385
    @Dayton_Dude

    I would disconnect the city water make up and run it around to the back of the boiler. Tie it into a return below the water line. Maybe you have an elbow somewhere you can take off and install a tee in it's place to connect the water to

    As for the rest see how it runs, if you don't get any water hammer in the header you will probably be fine. Did you install a skim pipe somewhere?
    Dayton_Dudeethicalpaul
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    edited April 7
    Yes. I may keep the city valve on just in case. But there is a 1 1/2 in below it. So I can remove that cap drop down and elbow to a an unused port. That would kill 2 concerns. Worst case I have a couple extra ports. 
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 2,669
    You would be far better off following the very simple piping diagrams which come w the boilers installation and operation manual . If your not following them then your experiment in piping is a waste of time and it may work but not as well as it should possibly better then before but not what it should be . In most cases those who hate there steam systems usually have the same issues poor near boiler piping lack of pipe insulation and a dirty boiler the most common issues and at this point in my life unless they need a new boiler or are willing to spend some money to correct the issues there’s nothing to be done . It makes zero sense to try and convince people who have there own ideas . I find it funny the stick drawing is right in the i &o manual and everybody refuses to accept or follow I ckaulk it up to dyslexia when one can see a diagram and cannot visualize it together in real life . I wish u the beat of luck and hopefully it will work better then before .at a mim u should have a full tee on the return inlet of the boiler to enable wanding of the boiler and a nipple installed on the skim tapping . Also buy a decent 0 to 3 or 5 psi gauge so you will know what the pressure is instead of guessing w the factory gauge . peace and food luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
    mattmia2STEVEusaPABobC
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,985
    My biggest beef is the trap with the makeup water tied into it.

    The rest may work fine.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Grallert
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 4,857
    ChrisJ said:

    My biggest beef is the trap with the makeup water tied into it.

    The rest may work fine.

    Agreed. The makeup water should be injected below the water line. The tee it's going into now is going to sludge up bad and be a maintenance nightmare over time, it just makes zero sense.

    Yes. I may keep the city valve on just in case. But there is a 1 1/2 in below it. So I can remove that cap drop down and elbow to a an unused port. That would kill 2 concerns. Worst case I have a couple extra ports. 

    Before doing that, I'd just connect the feed directly to whatever port you are planning on using. Those 2 big expensive tees weren't necessary. Elbow the end of the header down, with either a reducing elbow, or full size elbow and bell reducer straight into the equalizer. Put the water feed back in the general location it was before, below the water line, but coming into the side not the bottom, possibly even the end of the wet return that currently has a cap on it. I'd also add a service valve of some kind in the wet return, the tend to gunk up and having a valve can help with maintenance. Weil recommends this on the EGH, but it's just good practice no matter what.

    From the manual:
    "Steam supply must be on same end as controls. Return may be from either end."

    Meaning the return could have been on the controls end so it didn't have to make that piping across the boiler, and be connected incorrectly to the header. Again it's supposed to come down, not off the side like it is.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    Ok. I am meeting with my guy later this week to go through everything. Worst case we put the feed into a plug below the water line I want it on the same side as the sight glass. I feel like this becoming a bit more constructive. From my initial fires the eq is knocking way less and the feed has proper back flow. The take away from this is to simplify things and I dont have to rip everything up and go to forced air.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,864

    Ok. I am meeting with my guy later this week to go through everything. Worst case we put the feed into a plug below the water line I want it on the same side as the sight glass. I feel like this becoming a bit more constructive. From my initial fires the eq is knocking way less and the feed has proper back flow. The take away from this is to simplify things and I dont have to rip everything up and go to forced air.

    Don't run the feed directly into the boiler. If the feed water is very cold, and the boiler is hot, incoming water could cause thermal shock and crack the boiler. Run your feed into the return line so the water is tempered before it hits the boiler.

    And don't even think about switching to forced-air. If someone pushes that, throw them out of your house.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    delta T
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    @Steamhead got it. Btw Christan Egli says hello. I would never go FHA that is what my brother has an it is awful. 
  • Dayton_Dude
    Dayton_Dude Member Posts: 49
    So If I sub the T for an elbow with an adaptor I should be better off than using the adaptor T? Also the original fill method was going directly into the boiler... having it go through the eq would allow it to heat up before it hits the boiler below the water line.